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Two Seasons Farm Gordon Setters
Welcome to Two Seasons forum. Feel free to leave comments or questions about the website, or just talk about these great dogs!
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| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 6) |
| Author | Comment |
Chuck Momber
 Apr 8, 07 - 7:10 PM |
When is a Showdog not a Showdog
I recently had a conversation that bears some consideration. We were discusing common past Gordon Setters when it was stated that this person didn't want one of them show dogs, he wanted a hunter, like the one he had. Apparently he really didn't know what he had because there was a lot of CH,s on these pedigrees. CH is guess what? But, here's the deal they were good, I mean really good, on birds. How can this be? It's simple, the breeders paid attention to both attributes "form and function". Yes , you can get a show dog that can't point, but you can also get a "field dog" that has the structure not even fitting for a cat. Looking for a hunting dog?-- research, reaserch, researh, and let the buyer beware. What do you think, kids? |
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Kevin Ferguson
Apr 14th, 2007 - 8:03 PM |
Re: When is a Showdog not a Showdog
Chuck, You make a very good point. I will use the Classic English Setter, the Ryman, Decoverly or Old Hemlock lines of English Setter. I owned one and they are beautiful animals, wonderful companions and yes, they can hunt. Now, they seem to have a more . . . classic tail, say, 9 'o'clock to 10 o'clock instead of the now revered 12 o'clock tail. They don't appear to be as athletic but I've not found that to be the case. Anyway, all of the lines above were "Gentleman's" shooting dogs but defintely had show dogs among them. I see the same division, if you will, between field english setters and "grouse bred" English setters as one can see with Gordon Setters. It appears to me that there is a core group of Gordon fanciers that are dedicated to maintaining the classic hunting Gordon, just as George Bird Evans did with his Old Hemlock setter. I completely support the idea that these dogs can hunt and hunt well. Good hunting . . . |
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own belle
Jun 3rd, 2007 - 12:40 PM |
Re: When is a Showdog not a Showdog
Kevin, The Gordons Chuck is talking about are actively campaigned bench dogs that are able and successful hunters; George Rymans dogs were not, Carl Caulkins Rymans were not, and the Old Hemlocks bred by GBE were not. Ken Alexander's DeCoverley dogs are lighter boned and shorter coupled than the Caulkins Rymans and are very similar to the original Ryman setter and GBE's Old Hemlcock's. None of these lines are remotely close to the Laverack setters we associate with the bench type English Setter. Lots of Gordons that are hunted successfully are the get of dogs that were bench champions (my own included). They handle the grouse woods rather than the grouse woods handling them because they are made right and athletic, true to form and function, the two being dependent on each other. I had a Ryman setter from the Ryman kennel when it was being operated by Carl Caulkins who married George Ryman's widow. He was a big lovable guy, wonderful family dog, patient with kids and I killed a ton of birds over him. But he was never a great grouse dogs because he lacked athletic ability and nose. He also had very poor hips and was done as a field dog by age 8. Taking a dog to the grouse woods doesn't make him a grouse dog. I see lots of "field dogs" of lots of different breeds aren't even average grouse dogs because they lack that athletic abilty and conformation to negotiate the grouse woods. Hats off to Chuck for breeding dogs that are pleasing to the eye and well made. athletic, strong dogs that have the intelligence and bird sense to be great performers in the uplands! |
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Jim Stark
Aug 25th, 2007 - 12:00 AM |
Re: When is a Showdog not a Showdog
Unless it is a close line-breeding, or a repeat breeding, does anyone really know how the pups will turn out? My 42lbs. ***** has a bunch of bench champions in her pedigree, but Freebirch Vincent is also in there! She probably could've been a bench champion.....with the 1939 standards!!! Jim |
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Chuck Momber
Sep 1st, 2007 - 2:31 PM |
Re: When is a Showdog not a Showdog
Jim Even with close line breeding and repeat breeding there is always the unknown. Good lines are developed over years and the resulting dogs are a reflection of the breeders' priorities. If strong pointing instincts, bidability, good hips, etc, are important, that will be evident in what they produce. There are lines of many hunting breeds that consistantly produce physically sound good hunters. And there are lines that don't. I personally find the "showdog" vs "fielddog" argument to be overly simplistic, deceiving and annoying. A more appropriate debate should be the characteristics of a "gundog". I've noticed over the years that some like to banter over which standard from which year should apply to the Gordons, that debate is for those with more free time than I have. Good hunting--Chuck |
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own belle
Nov 24th, 2007 - 9:57 AM |
Re: When is a Showdog not a Showdog
Jim, Late to the party but here's my two cents. There is no way of knowing how a litter will turn out because no matter what a dog has achieved in the field, it will not affect his offspring. However, what the dog has achieved proves that he has the genetic qualities to excel, and if he turns out to be a good producer, to pass those qualities on to his offspring. |
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