I'm interested in everyone's opinion,again curious

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

I love some things about today's drum corps and I hate others. I love how talented the kids are.....they are amazing to watch and they ARE still as passionate about the activity as WE were.

Corps folding left and right, like my son's did last week, I HATE. I think I felt more pain about Capital Sound folding up their tent after Andy had marched their five years than I ever felt about Norwood or Guardsmen.

So that's my take on it.

-Terri

What did you do in the Corps? French horn

What years were you a Corps member? '72 - '73

I'm really not qualified to answer this question. For me, there has always been a DCI. But I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway.

Like Terri, I'm still involved with jr. corps today. After taking over 20 years off from drum corps, I got involved again a little over a year ago.

After marching with NP in 1979, I marched Pioneer in 1980. A little over a year ago, I met Roman Blenski again (amazingly..he hasn't aged either!!!) and volunteered my services. I now do odd jobs Roman needs done for the Pioneer. I worked on the equipment truck....I even organized the parking of the Corps busses at last seasons Pioneer home show. Roman is a good guy and I would call him a good friend.

When I marched in the late 70's - early 80's, drum corps was changing but changing slowly. As late as 1980, there still wasn't a "pit", a lot of Corps (Pioneer included) still carried their timpani ..the guard units still looked like they belonged to the Corps they marched with because they wore the same uniform....and shows still had a concert stand still and drum solo so that the horn and drum lines could show off their musical ability and skill.

I agree with Terri. The kids marching today are extremely talented. And the talent they have is much more diversified. The drill these kids have to march today is so much more difficult than anything I ever did. I also think the music suffers because of the drill. Last season I remember reading that The (Garfield) Cadets were having problems because the kids were running out of gas before the show was over. They didn't have the stamina and were looking for ways to slow the drill show down somehow. I find that statement amazing. It's not like the kids are out of shape either, the challenge to make a drill that difficult wore the kids out before the show was over.

Today, my 15 year old nephew is marching his first full season with the Pioneer (I'm a proud uncle). He is just as passionate as I was..and so are the kids he marches with. To him, he doesn't care if the show has ballet in it, or if the other kids in the Corps don't live here in the Milwaukee area and fly in..or that they are going to amplify the pit..he doesn't know any different. When my kids are old enough, they will march Pioneer also.

I like today's drum corps. I know of all the differences, but I'm hearing a lot from my nephew and he is saying a lot of the same things I did over 20 years ago. I guess for everything that has changed...there are a bunch of things that haven't.

PS Terri - I'm sorry to hear about the loss of the Capital Sound. It's a great loss and I know everyone hates so see this sort of thing happen to a bunch of great kids.

What years were you a Corps member? 2nd Sop in 1979

As many people already know, I do not like the current "wave" of drum corps activity.

1. As a drummer, I really appreciate and love the "classic" rudimental drummming technique. Most current drum corps use this style only to a limited degree.

2. I prefer the military style of marching; not the current wave of ultra fast tempo, "moving amoebas" and backwards/ sideways running.

3. I also prefer to hear recognizable music, not "home written" new and weird stuff.

4. Dancing teams and ballet do not belong in a marching program. Go to Hubbard Street Dance Company!

I do not at all support Dance Corps International (DCI). Besides the new style programs, I believe that they have overly encouraged corps to do summer touring .. at the expense of kids who could use summer jobs, summer school and a real life.

Even worse, this "bigness" and expense has caused the end of community corps which used to actually teach kids how to play and march, without great personal expense to them! No more!

BUT ....

this does NOT mean that the kids are bad! No way! In fact, many of them are even MORE dedicated than we were! Look at the work and expoense they have to suffer to do drum corps!

And, they actually LIKE the stuff they are doing! Of course, they don't know anything else either!

But, that's OK. If they like it and want to do it .. they should. I just wish there were more alternatives.

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

I concur with Dave's comments.

I've watched DCI corps since 1975. I attended the 1976 DCI Championship in Philadelphia (lived in DC area at the time), DCI shows in early to mid 80s at Whitewater,WI, Stillwater, MN, Ypsilanti, MI (lived in Mundelien, Minneapolis and Ann Arbor), and since moving to the Bay Area in 1984, the Blue Devils contests in Pleasant Hill, CA. I've also tried to catch the PBS broadcasts (although the past few years I've found better things to do with my time). So I am writing this from the perspective of someone who has watched the activity, but has not had any active involvement with a corps.

My observation is that until the early-90s, DCI was essentially a natural progression of the corps like Norwood, Royal Airs, Sac, Cavaliers, et al from my era in the activity (1959-1966). The shows were entertaining, music generally familiar, and the sound was "bigger" (particularly Blue Devils, Santa Clara, and Madison). The drills were “wide-open” and not as military--(the American Flag disappeared and color guards started to become more of a chorus line). The kids were also better musicians. Also, the corps were more professionally managed (I have the impression that the corps director was a paid and maybe a full time position for some of the more successful corps).

For the last ten years or so, I find that the corps are generally boring. The Blue Devils, Santa Clara and Madison and Garfield (Bergen County) still occasionally put on a show which is entertaining. (The 2002 Garfield/Bergen County tribute to Sept 11, 2001, was one of the few patriotic displays I’ve seen from a DCI Corps since 1976--last time anyone did something similar to a flag presentation.) The rest of the corps play obscure semi-classical pieces or on occasion esoteric original pieces. The music/drill is well executed. Each corps now has a dance ensemble instead of a color guard and the show seems to be arranged to feature the dance performance. As a fan watching a coprs' performance, my impression is: "That sounds nice, but what is it? I am not being entertained." The only people who respond to a corps performance are the parents, relatives and boosters of the particular corps.

Quite frankly I expect that soon DCI will truly become Dance Corps International. The ultimate corps will be a 100 person dance ensemble accompanied by a 40 piece orchestra (the small brass section in the orchestra will use traditional band instruments and of course there will be a few drums to maintain some tradition). The orchestra will stay in the pit while the dance ensemble does it's thing.

In addition to the big money that Dave mentions (according to my contacts at the Blue Devils we're talking over $1 million annually), the activity is now something a music major does during the summer to get college credit. Last year I watched the Blue Devils practice at their winter camp at Diablo Valley College (was there because my son was playing in a college baseball game on the adjacent field). The majority of the corps I saw was made up of kids who were freshmen and sophomores in college (19 and 20 year olds) from everywhere versus the 15 to 20 year olds from the East Bay of the mid-80s corps. DCI is no longer a community based activity. It has become an activity for training professional musicians.

As a former corps member it's sad to say that perhaps the best and last true drum corps (in a traditional sense) is a college marching band--Ohio State. Ohio State is brass and drums and the sound is closer to what a corps should sound like than anything DCI presently puts on the field.

John A

PS I also find it interesting that although the Blue Devils have won about 10 or 11 DCI championships, they get no local recognition. In my almost 20 years in the Bay Area, I have never seen an article on them in the local newspapers after one of their many championship wins. Another sign of a loss of community connection?

I missed 20 years of drum corps...so when I saw a show for the first time in a long time, what I saw really didn't surprise me. In the late 70's and early 80's..I remember hearing that the Madison Scout guard members were required to take dance lessons...so when I saw all the dancing being done these days..I wasn't surprised. Do I like the dance better? No. I miss the precision rifle lines.

The first modern show I saw was a tape of the 2002 Cavaliers from the DCI Championships in Madison. I was amazed at what the drill show had turned into. Incredible!! They did things Corps' from my era would never even attempt to try....and they did a fantastic job. I was, however very disappointed with the music. Nothing jumped out. No dazzling solo's...and the music seemed to lack dynamics. There wasn't a moment, musically, that went POW to bring the audience to it's feet. Maybe the Corps' today rely on the "pit" a lot and tone it down. Maybe I'm wrong?

When I heard the Cavaliers scored a 99.something (I don't remember the exact score)....I about fell over. I had to do some research to assure myself that they score different these days. I was relieved to find out that they do.

Since I missed the 90's completely, I also missed the Star of Indiana altogether. I did some reading on them and saw pictures of these huge triangular props they brought on to the field with them one year. I haven't seen anything like that yet...and quite frankly, that's were I would personally have to draw the line. I hope that sort of thing was just a passing fad of the late 80's and 90's, and that nobody does that sort of thing anymore.

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

Keith,

You mentioned the Star of Indiana. I never saw them in person, but do recollect seeing them on the PBS broadcasts the limited number of years they competed in DCI Championships--I think they won one year. I also recollect that after they won the DCI championship they went into a performance arts thing and no longer competed (or exist as a corps). I recollect that they were closely tied to the University of Indiana Music department and that the Indiana students in the corps got college credit for participating in DCI.

I would have to say that the appearance of Star of Indiana in DCI was perhaps an event that put the activity clearly on the path to today. A turning away from tradition.

John A

PS Please don't forget to say hello to Roman for me.

I think I have a different perspective on this than some other people, since I marched in the "good old days" (beginning in 1970), but ended my marching days on the doorstep of the new era (1980). I have also prided myself on being somewhat of a drum corps historian - thanks to that stash of old Drum Corps Worlds and News' that I found at the American Legion post in Skokie! And I've always said that I was born 10 years too late for drum corps - I MUCH preferred the older times.

However, as a music educator, I have had to keep pace with current trends. I have also had several former students march drum corps during the 90's and into the 2000's, so I have seen the entire spectrum. Basically what happened is that the visual overtook the musical aspects of the show. In the old days, you picked good music that people would either recognize, or even if they didn't, there was at least some type of melody that they could enjoy. THEN, you wrote drill to compliment the music. Today that is reversed. And, in the extreme case, the Cavaliers actually WRITE the music based on the drill. And while I am also a former Cavalier, and have allegiances to that corps as well (don't shoot me, Dave Borck!), I have definitely NOT enjoyed them lately from a MUSICAL standpoint - although, as Keith said, the visual is amazing.

Personally I miss the old days when a horn line would just blow you away ('75 Madison), and I must say that marching in a corps with a horn line like that ('80 Spirit of Atlanta) is really a trip (although practicing in a gym over the winter was DEAFENING!). But I don't hold out any hope for a return to entertaining shows. I personally haven't enjoyed drum corps in several years. If you want fun, watch the seniors and hang out at the souvenir booths!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

So THAT'S it! Thanks Bob, you are right. Current DCI corps have it backwards .. it is the VISUAL aspect which drives the programs. The audience is supposed to be impressed by the "field dance presentation" regardless of the music (which may not even be recognizable).

Well, I suppose there are a lot of people who like this ... and are willing to pay premium ticket prices. But, I am not among them.

I prefer the corps which play music which is well known (or in which you can identify an enjoyable melody); which present a "military styled" show, perhaps have a patriotic theme (or at least, a color presentation).

I miss having local corps in parades, drum corps shows with 10 area corps, ticket prices which you can afford, corps which accept kids who need to have a summer activity and have a summer job. In other words, community drum corps.

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63; asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 64-65

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

Bob,

Like your comments. Madison 75 and 76 are good examples of what a hornline should sound like. They could play with great volume (without losing tone quality--blasting), and their music and drill were arranged to effectively use that volume.

If you were in the Spirit in 1980, I probably saw you perform at Stillwater, Minnesota. I also saw them at Whitewater in 1979. Spirit was an entertaining corps that seemed to come on the scene, had an impact for a few years and then faded away.

I don't know about the sound quality of the senior corps. I've seen the San Francisco Renegades live. I understand they did well at DCA championships so I assume they are representative of the DCA product. The problem with the Renagades is they play loud all the time. Sometimes so loud that the quality is distorted.

I was fortunate enough to cross paths with the Spirit of Atlanta several times back "in the day". Their horn line didn't have a problem projecting...that’s for sure. Their horn line made the hair on the back of you neck stand straight up. Unfortunately it's near impossible to recreate the "sensation” of hearing something like that. The only way to remember how strong they were is to watch the 1980 DCI Finals on DVD..at the opening of their show (Sweet Georgia Brown) the camera is literally shaking and vibrating from the volume. It's the only time during the entire program...through every Corps..that this happens.

It would be tough for Jr. Corps from ANY era to measure up to a horn line like that...and in this day and age..I would agree that we will probably never see something like that happen again.

I think Spirit of Atlanta is still around...but are no longer based out of Atlanta and are now called Spirit from Jacksonville State University (JSU). They were in finals in 2003. I've only seen pictures of them, but they still look like the Spirit of Atlanta.

It's too bad whole horn lines or drum lines can't be in a drum corps hall of fame somehow. I think the 75 Madison Scouts (not familiar with 76) and the 80 Spirit horn lines would be shoe ins.

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

Keith, what a great idea! Create awards for
"hall of fame" horn & drum lines (and color guards!). That would recognize special achievements in a new way. While the "FIRST PLACE" caption awards come close to this, YOUR awards would add to that dimension.

Some of MY favorites:

drum lines:
Blessed Sacrament: 1958- 66
Boston Crusaders: 1965-66
Garfield Cadets: 1958
Anahein Kingsmen: 1971-72
Sabta Clara Vanguard: 1972
Bayonne Bridgemen: 1977-80
Spirit Of Atlanta: 1979-80
Racine Kilties: 1964
LaCrosse Blue Stars: 1972-73
Belleville Black Knights: 1958- 63

Bugle lines:

Madison Scouts: almost EVERY year!
Spirit of Atlanta: ditto
Santa Clara Vanguard: 1970's
St. Kevins Emerald Knights: 1960's
Argonne Rebels: 1971-72
Blessed Sacrament: 1958- 66

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

I won't comment on drum lines--not my area of expertise.

I don't totally agree with Dave's Hall of Fame picks for horn lines. Here are my picks:

Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights 1959-1964 (Bill Hayes and Jim Day arrangers who could get the purest and cleanest sound out of those old sopranos, french horns and baritones.)

Concord Blue Devils 1975 to present (Modern Day SAC--a marching version of Stan Kenton's Jazz Concert Bands. For over 25 years, whether the brass line members were 15 to 19 year old boys and girls in the 70s to the 19 to 20 year old professional musicians in training of today the sound is always consistently clean, tone quality is pure and they usually play music that the fan can appreciate.)

Madison Scouts 1960, 1962, 1975 and 1976

St Kevins Emerald Knights 1960 and 1963(along with SAC they had some very good french horn players and the arrangements made use of them.)

Argonne Rebels 1971 and 1972 (Ms Opie and Mr Pennington build horn lines comparable to the 1959-64 Sac Corps).

There are a few others that come close. Santa Clara had some good hornlines in the 70s and 80s. The Kilties in the late 60s and 1975 and the Spirit of Altanta in 1980 were entertaining. However, in my view these corps don't come close to quality of those listed above.

I always liked the 1972 Hawthorne Muchachos show. What a horn line!! They had a couple of soloists I thought were fantastic. I was listening to that show just last week.

I'm probobly not qualified to comment on drum lines...but I did like the 1980 Bridgemen (sorry Bob!). I also thought it was cool that as innovative and different the Bridgemen were trying to be...the snare line were still using slings as late as 1980.

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

Keith - no offense taken. Bridgemen had some super lines in the early 80's. My problem with them is that we actually tied on the field in 1980, and they broke the tie with the GE score - so Bridgemen basically won drums because they had a better guard than Spirit. I STILL think they should have used the execution score, since this was still the era of ticks. But that's all water under the bridge(men)...

As for carriers, I was the lone dissenting vote to use them in 1980 with Spirit! I protested by wearing my old sling over my carrier at every show (not attached to anything and under the uniform). And I find it interesting that today snare lines are using carriers but tilting the drums so they look like they're on the old slings - and Santa Clara started it! They were the ones who flattened the drums first 30 years ago!

And I have to argue with Dave Borck for a minute. While I agree with most of your picks for the Hall of Fame captions, how could you NOT include ANY Cavalier drum lines? I am well aware of the legendary ill will between Norwood and the Cavies (especially having marched with both corps), but you don't think ANY of Larry McCormick's lines deserve mention? And since I KNOW you love old-time rudimental drumming, what about the 1976 Cavalier line - probably the last line to truly play that style and difficulty of music? Maybe you're still mad about my Dad's reaction at that individual competition in Wisconsin?

LOL! Have a Happy Holiday everybody!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

To: Bob Shreffler, re: CAVALIERS (ugh) drum lines ...

well...I have to admit that there were a lot of Cavalier drum lines worthy of note in terms of "worthwhile rudimental drumming". But the only lines that really hit me as "hall of fame" would be 1961 and (maybe) 1976 (when Dan Spaulding led them).

Truth is, I don't remember all of the lines ... maybe that is a testament to the fact that they may not have been that great?

The (probable) Norwood vs Cavaliers dislike has nothing to do with this. I'd also have to say that our drum lines never contributed anything that woulkd be called "Hall of Fame". We were always solid rudimetntal players, doing "worthwhile" stuff ... but we never reached the heights we are talking about here.

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

Dave - don't sell Norwood drummers short! There is a mention in Jodeen Popp's drum corps history book about 1958, when Norwood's drum quartet (featuring Bill Strauts and Hank Grana) won the VFW National Championship. Considering how small lines were in those days, having 4 guys that good meant the line as a whole HAD to be super!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Bob, re: 1958 Championship drum quartet.

I was THERE when they competed and won! It was a great performance ... Tony Demarco on snare; Bill Strauts and Dick Stack on tenor; with Hank Grana on rudimental bass. (If my memory is correct.)

Tony Demarco also won the Individual snare title at that convention! (Note that he went on later to teach the Racine Kilties, who won Nationals in 1964 and 1968 with his help!)

And, I marched with these guys.

BUT .. while the line played VERY well, I'd still have to say that it would be hard to class us with "Hall of Fame" calibre lines. Mostly because we didn't have the same IMPACT and/ or innovation.

If the line had been TOTALLY unbeatable, maybe that would push us into the "Hall of Fame" category?

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

Thanks everyone for your replies on my question on the new wave of drum corps.I never really had a chance to ask someone who was a past member or one who was involved in teaching,management,etc.There was some interesting comments made.I myself have only seen one contest,but that was either 71 or 72 at Whitewater,Wis.I can't really remember what it was like.What I have heard and read and seen on tapes,even on PBS,I'm not interested in it at all.I realize those of you that have been part of it at one time or another can't really compare the two styles of drum corps if you really haven't seen both like some of us older folks have.Dave and I had the opportunity to see both styles.I hope everyone had a nice Holiday,I'm running out time right now,I still have comments to add to some of the other topics that were brought out in everyones replies on this topic,I'll have to continue later in the next few days,talk to everyone soon.

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

Tony Demarco - THERE'S a name I haven't heard in forever! Although I never actually met the man, he was still quite a legend when I was marching in the early 70's. How good was he, Dave?

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

What I remember about Tony Demarco when we in the corps together was in my opinion he was the best,in fact I'm pretty sure Frank Arsunalt was our drum instructor when Tony won the individual snare drum
contest at National's.My brother Ron and him used to hang out with each other,and he had this 55 or 56
black Thunderbird convertible,it was immaculate.He was truly a great drummer.

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

I like the idea of a Hall of Fame for horn lines,drum lines,etc.There was some fantastic lines in drum corps
especially when Dave and I were in.Some of the recordings I've collected now and some I bought when I
was in,the majority are from the 50's 60's and a few after 65.Dave your horn line list should include 61
VFW Nationals,the Cavaliers,everytime I listen to that
recording it's amazing how great their horn line was.
Blessed Sac,Garfield,St.Kevins all had great horn lines.I also enjoy listening to St.Kevins and their french horns,they really stood out in their music.I have a recording of St.Kevins at the 62 VFW National's
that is really good.I also have 2 recordings of Hawthorne and the Rielly Raiders from 1958,both of these horn lines are just incredible to listen to.Hawthorne was already a legend in their owm time that year.

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

Rich, you are TOTALLY correct about the Reilly Raiders and the Hawthorne Caballeros! These corps were great!
Just seeing them gave you goosebumps!

There were some others in those days .. Archer Epler Musketeers, for example. And the NY Skyliners! Wow!

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

Last weekend I had occasion to be over at Diablo Valley Junior College in Pleasant Hill, CA, and saw about 15 minutes of a Concord Blue Devils practice (it was their annual President's Day weekend winter camp, of course their winter camp is held outside in the sun in 60 degree weather). They now refer to their brass instruments as trumpets, mellophones, baritones and tubas. They are no longer "bugles." So seems to me that DCI is no longer using the term drum and bugle corps.

I will say that the Blue Devils brass line sounds in mid-season form (of course they're all 19 and 20 year old professional musicians in training)and the Stan Kenton big jazz band sound is still there.

What years were you a Corps member? 1959-66 (Cadets 59-61 Imperials 62-66)