I think it's cool that there are several traditions that Corps' still observe:

* I went to Rockford last year for Phantom's home show. The Cavaliers were there...and while I was a little distraught over what their guard were wearing, (my 7 year old daughter loved the guard!!) I loved hearing them march off the field for review (they still call it review..don't they?) using that same "street beat". Isn't that cadence named after a state? Like Iowa or something?.

* At the beginning of last season, I read on the DCI web site that the Cadets were getting new uniforms. When I read this bit of news, I pictured them with new style uniforms loosely based on the cadet style of uniform. When I saw the Cadets at Rockford, I saw what looked like the same uniforms they've always worn..maybe the pants are now white as opposed to cream (or beige) colored. Other than being new..at least they looked the same as they did years ago.

* Why is it not surprising that the Boston Crusaders are still around?

....and from this past season

* Spirit from JSU paid tribute to several things during their show. Granted..what they were paying tribute to was more from the 70's and 80's. But, I thought it was cool that among other things..they were still remembering Jim Ott, and of all things ...the Bridgemen! None of the kids in the Corps were even alive when Jim Ott passed away in 1980.

* The Madison Scouts started their show with most of the Corps marching from the left to the right in a large company front...simulating a traditional starting line. Unfortunately, the front looked like it started to fall apart toward the end. But it was neat seeing a modern Corps even take a stab at something like that. Maybe their drill designer caught a Royal Air show at some point and was inspired?

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

Keith... thanks for the ideas about traditions.

1. Yes .. "pass in review" or "trooping the stands" is still done. Yes, I believe the Cavie bass drum beat is called "Iowa".
(beats me why).

2. yes .. keeping a traditional uniform is a great tradition .. but a lot of corps don't follow that.

3. Boston Crusaders have a rich tradition .. and they have a lot of support to keep it going!

4. the "company front" is NO LONGER a tradition in drum corps. If Madison tried to do it, it must have been a mistake! Or a temporary ploy.

But, here are some traditions which still occur:

1. the kids still love what they are doing and work hard to be good

2. they still sleep on gym floors and enjoy cold showers!

BUT....

1. Most drum corps avoid parades, at least in DCI

2. corps spend too much time on tours, instead of doing local shows and events

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

Before David Borck replied..I wanted to satisfy my own curiosity about the name of the Cavalier cadence. I cut and paste this from a Cavalier discussion thread from their web site.

I was told my Joe Shuker (Snare 97-01) that they called it IOWA because in 1951 the Cavaliers won they're first show in Cedar Rapid, IOWA(theres the connection boys and girls) were they defeated The Four Lakes Boy Scout Council (Later to be known as the Madison Scouts), the Grenadiers and Imperials

How cool is that!!! See for yourself at - http://www.cavaliers.org/cgi-bin/forum.pl?cmd=msgview&msgid=144516

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

As for the Cavaliers' "Iowa" cadence, that story is wrong, and I believe is discussed further on in the thread. It started later than that, and was/is called "Iowa" because that fits the rhythm - remember, it was started during the time when very few drum corps people actually read music,especially once you got to the bass drums and cymbals. I don't think it started until sometime in the 60's. But I KNOW I have the Iowa part right.

And I LOVED Spirit's show this year! Having marched there in 1980 - the year Jim Ott was killed on tour - it certainly brought a tear to my eye. It was actually interesting, because the Jim Ott flag came out late in the show and I was wondering how they could ignore him, then there it was, along with music of "Let It Be Me." A beautiful moment. As for honoring the Bridgemen, that one was harder to take (see my previous posts on the subject).

Unfortunately, "tradition" and drum corps walk opposite sides of the street these days.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Keith,

When I last saw Madison at the Blue Devils Show in 2002, they did a 50 yard company front off the line as part of their warmup. The formation fell apart a about the 25 yard line.

The Scouts show in 2002 was pretty dismal. That night I think they finished in sixth place behind the Blue Devils, Vanguard, Seattle and two southern California corps.

Another thing I've noticed with DCI shows is that the host corps competes in the show. In the 60s I recollect that when a corps hosted a contest, they did not compete. Is this just a California thing?

re: host corps competing in their own show.

Actually this is very commonplace nowadays, even outside of DCI. Sometimes they just need the extra corps in the show.

There was a time when the host corps didn't compete mainly because they were busy WORKING at the show and adding competition to that was not feasible.

Things are probably different now!

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

I'm not sure about the host Corps competing. Last season, I wasn't always paying attention to it. However, I believe at the Pioneer home show, the Pioneer put on a judged exhibition and performed last. Their score was not announced during finale. But..the Phantom Regiment competed during their home show and finished third behind The Cavaliers and The Cadets. Maybe it's up to the host if they want to compete?

I guess some traditions did get out of hand. I loved the 27th Lancers...but (in my opinion) Danny Boy as their closer just got old and worn out. On the other hand...while maybe not a tradition, when was the last time Santa Clara did the bottle dance?

What years were you a Corps member? 79 Sop

Santa Clara playing the "Bottle Dance" is as likely as Madison closing with "You'll Never Walk Alone" or the Cavaliers finishing with "Somewhere Over the Rainbow."

In regards to competing in one's own show, I can't believe you guys (Dave and John) don't remember that the Cavaliers almost always competed in their show.

It always ticked me off, because since they were "top dog" in the late 50's and early 60's, they would always walk off with the top prize money from their own show!

As far as Madison's company fronts - well, I don't remember it as part of the show, but they would march in a company front, then break off to form the Fleur-de-lis and would then do their on field warm up - this was done a few times in the past 8 years (since I began following Corps again). Sometimes it was straight, sometimes not . . . I give them credit for trying. Few corps do these days.

Last year they did (I think) a 50 yard company front off the line, just to a drum beat. I never saw them in person last year - just saw the video from DCI last week. They held it straight for a time, but then lost it. Come to think of it, I just realized - Yes - they actually did start on the starting line.

Let's face it . . . these days it's all about obfuscation. Rarely do you see a corp in white pants, or with a stripe down the legs, or even white shows. It shows the "dirty feet" too well. You see "free form" rather than geometric patterns. There are the occasional rotating boxes, etc., but you see a lot more amoebas out there than anything.

However, boys, let's try to remember . . . when is the last time you saw US marching? We sit here studying videos of the current corps and criticizing them, but when did you see a video of the 50's and 60's corps? You didn't! I wish we had videos back then, but the best we got was a 4 minute - SILENT - Super8 movie. Point is, maybe our fronts weren't perfect either.

Bruce

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone - the only horn with TONE

What years were you a Corps member? 62 through 66

I don't remember the Cavaliers competing in their own show in 1962-66 period. I remember the Cavaliers show as a contest where we could at least finish second (instead of third or fourth).

Sunday, June 16, 1963 - Park Ridge, IL - (Cavalier's Show)

1 Cavaliers 71.53
2 Royal Airs 69.86
3 Norwood Park Imperials 69.68
4 Kilties 67.68
5 Phantom Regiment 59.83
6 Skokie Vanguard 59.34
7 Angels 45.40

This is the only score I have available, but it's a good example.

I agree with Bruce. The Cavies always were in their own show and always won it.

They were quite arrogant back then.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals & Rudimental Bass Drum

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965 drumline

Larry,

In 1963 we finished in second in the Cavaliers show. What you probably have from 1963 is a summary which includes the Cavaliers exhibition score. When the Cavalier’s exhibition score was higher than the winner of their contest, they made sure that it got announced (it always was higher because the judges were on cruise control during an exhibition). They also sent the scores into Drum Corps World with themselves listed before the actual winner of the contest. This is almost as arrogant than competing in their own contest--"you guys are good, but we're so much better." But at least they didn't take the 1st place prize money.

The prize money was important in the 60's. As I recollect in most contests the first three corps usually got more than the other competitors and money was a big deal for all the corps.

In 1966 Cavaliers contest we came in second to the Vanguard--lost the contest by about 0.1. In 1962 Norwood was in third behind the Royal Airs and Madison. In 1964 were came third behind the Royal Airs and Belleville. In 1965 we were in second place behind the Royal Airs. (My source for this is a summary I kept during my years in the corps.)

hmmm... it would seem that the Cavaliers have a solid tradition of desiring to "stick it to" the other area corps!

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

It would seem that John is most likely correct, and although that does mean that the Cavaliers never "competed" at their own show, they made it appear so. I looked up their show from 1962 and the scores listed are:

1 Royal Airs 79.75
2 Madison Scouts 76.00
3 Norwood Park Imperials 72.60
4 Vanguard 69.30
5 Morton Grove Cougars 60.10
6 Scarlet Knights 45.15

It is highly likely that the Cavaliers on that night did not score first, and therefore it wasn't published. The very next day, they were defeated, by 0.05, by the Royal Airs in Spring Valley. That indicates the Cavaliers probably weren't first at their own show and, since they were only a "judged exhibition" they weren't going to reveal that they didn't make it to the top.

John, this is very revealing, and I will not argue with your logs. They are going to be very interesting for everyone to see once I get them posted. Does your log have anything from the Cavalier show on Saturday, June 16, 1962?

I always hate to see "judged exhibition" scores. They are meaningful only to the Corps management and have absolutely nothing to do with rankings against real competition.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals & Rudimental Bass Drum

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965 drumline

Larry,

The log just has our placement in the contests from 1962 through 1966 so it only lists us as being in 3rd place for that contest. I didn't put in placements on the summary because I didn't have the time. Also, my old notes generally only list corps that finished area of Norwood.

For the 1962 Cavalier contest we came in third behind the Royal Airs and Madison. The next night the Royal Airs beat the Cavaliers at Spring Valley and we finished in 3rd (Madison evidently went back to Wisconsin after the Cavalier's show).

The 1962 Cavaliers show was interesting because Madison had new uniforms. They stopped wearing their explorer scout uniforms with white spats and had shakos and battle jackets. They also had their American Flag escorts carry pikes--boy scouts don't carry rifles. We also wore our new uniforms for the first time in the Chicago area at that show(we debuted them the previous weekend in the downpour at VFW state).

I have another angle (trivial conspiracy theory) on the Cavaliers announcing their exhibition scores at their show. I think that 1962 was the only year in my time in the corps that the Cavaliers show occurred after VFW state--usually was the weekend before the contest. As state contests were usually judged by some east coast judges, it would have been advantageous to the Cavaliers to let the eastern judges know that they were so much better than the other Illinois corps. In your previous posting their exhibition score was about 2 points higher than the Royal Airs.

Maybe some things change, maybe not.

Here's a headline from Drum Corps World:

7/31/2003 - Cavaliers win their home show in Des Plaines (on 7/2

Other Corps at that show were The Cadets (Bergen County), Magic of Orlando, The Colts, Mandarins, Blue Stars and Revolution of San Antonio.

The Royal Airs were in exhibition, and they did so without trying to fool anybody.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals & Rudimental Bass Drum

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965 drumline

well said, Larry and John!

After all:

"You can fool all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time ... but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time".

So... who were the Cavaliers really fooling here?

What did you do in the Corps? member 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63 drum line

"What is, is what shall be. And there is no new thing under the sun!"

During the three years I marched with the Cavaliers (1974, 75, 76), we did NOT compete in our own show. Management would always tell us our score, but even WE knew you couldn't put much stock in it. However, Phantom ALWAYS competed - and won - their show in Rockford, and it ****** US off. It's normal today for a corps to compete in their own show.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Interesting answers about the Cavalier show.I'm pretty sure in 61 was the year that the Cavaliers didn't compete in their own show,that year Garfield
won it.Because that was one of their stops on their way to Denver for American Legion Natinals,and they were also good friends with the Cavaliers.

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

One thing that made being in drum corps so special during the period I was in it,was that the majority of kids that joined didn't have any musical experience
or if they did,it was very little.Many couldn't read
music like myself,or didn't know how to play a bugle or drums,we were taught at the practices we had and spent time between practices at home playing what they
gave us.When someone would join the corps who had any
experience with a musical instrument we always felt
impressed with that,now it's changed completely around.

many

What did you do in the Corps? soprano and than french horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 through 1963

Rich:

After I graduated High School, I enrolled in Jr. College and became a music major. After a year of being a music major, my Dad convinced me I should major in Business, specifically, Finance or Accounting. Well, I'm bad at math, so I became a Marketing Major.

This biggest reason why I gave up being a music major is that I couldn't read music. Sure I could read the rhythms such as 8th notes, 16th notes, etc. But I knew nothing of melodies or harmonies. In Corps, I played Cymbals (2yrs), Bass Drum (1yr), and Tenors (1yr). I could count to 4 really really well.

As a music major, I had to take a class called Aural Training (ear training). The first day of class, the professor plays a chord on the piano. We had to write down each note of the chord and the proper key and cleff, and sing it back to him.

I dropped that class after the first day. Drummers are tone deaf (I certainly am).

What did you do in the Corps? Drums

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 through 1983

Jim Eiden memntioned being "tone deaf". Well, unfortunately, there are a LOT of drum corps drummers who are not only TONE deaf, they are really DEAF! Reason: playing way much is closed spaces with really LOUD instruments and NO ear protection.

Raelly dumb too, because there are a number of low cost ear protection devices which allow the players to hear yet give good protection from high decibal impacts!


Live and learn!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, assistant instructor 1964-71, quartermaster 1964-66