I went on Friday to watch two different corps rehearse - the Cavaliers and the Bluecoats. I watched for a total of about 3 hours, and didn't hear one roll, flam, drag, or any other rudiment played by either drum line - just a bunch of sixteenth notes with accents. I know, they're running around the field at ridiculous tempos, which makes it harder to play. My question, then, is WHY? Is the visual really worth removing drumming?

Haven't I asked this question before?

And, by the way, I did NOT go to either show, so obviously my "review" is based on a very limited sample. I went to finals last year and only enjoyed 2 corps, so I figured I'd save the money - we went to a movie instead!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Are you saying that they play musc instead of rudiments? I think that modern drum lines are so much more musical than the old rumblings, but I'm a brass player. And I'm sure no one will agree with me.

What did you do in the Corps? Soprano

What years were you a Corps member? 70-75 Cadets, 76-81 A Corps

Since we've picked on drums and horns so far - what about colorguard!!! Today's drum corps colorguard members wouldn't know how to twirl an 8 foot flag pole with a "rug" on it. Flag poles are now 5 feet or less and have only a few ounces of silk on them.

At least the heavy flags were useful for things like wrapping around us when we got cold.

What did you do in the Corps? Fr. Horn Bugle, xylophone, flag

What years were you a Corps member? end of '72 to 1977

an interesting set of posts.

From Jims comments, I'd say that he thinks if a drum line plays with a rudimental style, they cannot be "musical". Of course, that is NOT true. Listen to any arrangement done by Dick Brown (one of the best rudimental drum instructors around the midwest) and you'll also hear very msuical arrangements. Yet, there have been instructors/ arrangers who used rudimental drumming without thinking of musical impacts.

As for rudimental drumming, I agree with Bob, the drum lines today are nowhere near using this style. And, the precision and difficulty of corps drumming is (or WAS) one of the premier attractions of the activity. Now, they are no different than most marching bands.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

I wouldn't know a rudiment if it bit me on the butt. I just think that the drums of today play with alot more musicianship, finesse, and dynamics than in the older days. The horn lines do, too. We were just blasting on our instruments (if you could call those things instruments). The drums were just pounding away. We didn't care about tone quality. We did little about dynamics. We didn't have many key changes (we generally would play in C or maybe one sharp of flat). We were always around 120 bpm. I liked it back then, but today it's even better.

What did you do in the Corps? Soprano

What years were you a Corps member? 70-75 Cadets, 76-81 A Corps

Bob:

Did you get a chance to see any of their warm up exercises? If so what were they warming up with. AQren't rudiments that basis for all drumming (Paradiddles, double paradiddles, etc.)?

When I was a cymbal player, I desparately wanted to move up to Bass Drum, etc. I found bass drum to be one of the hardest instruments to play in the drum line. Did you get a good listen to any of the bass runs? How were they. When I watch a drum line, the first thing I do is study the bass line, then I move on to studying snare and tenors.

Did you hear a lot of tics?

Paul Wojtena told me something that I have kept to this day. He told me if I could play a drum roll on a pillow using only my wrists, then I've made it. My Junior year of high school, I was able to do it.

I wonder what their warm-ups were like though.

What did you do in the Corps? Drums

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 through 1983

drum line warmups:

mostly are single taps (each hand and alternating) starting at slow speeds, then faster. Ditto with sixteenth notes, alternating hands .... all to loosen the wristes and hands. Followed by roll and
pattern exercises.

Some use rudimental patterns, most don't.

BTW .. Paul's "ready rule" is a good one. If you can do that exercise, you have strong wrists & forearms and good finger control.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

re: bass drum "runs"

There are two really hard parts of doing these well....

1. getting the TIMING properly (the notes are usually in a pattern, but spread among 3-5 drummers). Really hard to get that doiwn well!

2. getting the same "stroke" (approach to the drum) among the 3-5 bass drummers. This helps with the previously mentioned timing problem, but is an absolute requirement for any UNISON notes!

Clearly, the days of bass drum playing being "easy" are long gone! BUT, in todays drum corps .. there are NO "ticks" and most drum judges are very lenient on this stuff unless the line is grossly out of control.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

Most of the lines play MUCH harder stuff in warmups than they EVER do on the field. In fact, it seems like they spend more time coming up with warmups than anything else they do. This has also infected the high school bands. Most drum lines spend 75% of their rehearsals on warmups, because the music isn't much of a challenge.

And it IS possible to play rudimental parts musically. Listen to most ANY line from the late 70's and into the early 80's. They played more notes in their openers than you hear in entire shows now, but no one can say that Spirit, Devs, Santa Clara, etc. weren't musical. I think the breakdown came when the visual caption took over everything else, and it became physically impossible to play anything remotely difficult while running around the field.

I could never march today. For 11 years my drill was either on the 50-yard line (if we had an odd number of snares) or one step to the right of it (if we had an even number)! I would get scared if I ventured anywhere past the 45!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

I agree 100% with Bob's comments about drum lines and rudimental drumming!! (Jim Snyder, what makes you come to the conclusion that rudimental drumming must NOT be musical?)

I also agree about the placement of drum lines .. the only time I ventured away from the 50 yard line in the corps was in the OTL and the closer! We were ROOTED to that 50! AND .. we never ran around the field ('course we didn't have the new "carriers" either!)

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

I've often thought about the difference of drum corps today and the drum corps styles we experienced.

Am I correct to assume that the more difficult rudiments are not included in a show because the level of difficulty may cause points to be deducted (tics)?

There are so many "innovative" trends that became popular and were designed to avoid tics! Consider the disappearance of the American Flag squad and the elimination of flag presentation numbers. In addition, company fronts turned into ubiquitous arcs and circles, so that judges had a hard time assessing for tics. Rifles rarely have a "clean" (solid stop) catch anymore because of tics. When was the last time a corps did a true "about face" or "right face"? You just don't see it anymore. This leads me to the assumption that the lack of flams and other drum rudiments probably comes from the way judges have assessed shows over time.

The evolution of drum corps tells us that "smarter" shows are not necessarily better - but a good corps instructor can plan a "smart" show and eliminate potential tics from their program in order to earn high scores from the on-field judges. -- All in the name of progress. On the down side, really good rudiments are lost in that progress.

What did you do in the Corps? Fr. Horn Bugle, xylophone, flag

What years were you a Corps member? end of '72 to 1977

I would have to agree with Bob and Dave on this one.

I'm not a music major and don't always understand what the drumline is doing. However, I was thinking about what makes drums (or a drum line) musical. Well..if pressed - I can sing the 1980 Spirit of Atlanta drum solo (Devil Went Down To Georgia). I can also do the same with several other favorite drum line pieces from the late 70's and early 80's. Also, songs used to have major drumline highlights and breaks without being a traditional solo. That to me also qualifies as being "musical".

To me, the difference is in "the pit". From what I can hear, what musical accents the main drum line used to execute was handed over to the pit. Taking that responsibility freed up the drum line to concentrate on the drill...thus increasing G.E. scores..and so on.

As far as recent drum line dramatic impact? It can be done. Last year, when the Boston Crusaders lined up 14 or 15 snares for a dramatic portion of their show, I went WOW!! What a sound and great musical impact!!


...by the way, you REALLY don't want to hear me sing these drum parts. Hearing me sing ANYTHING..I'm afraid...would not be musical!!!

What did you do in the Corps? 2nd Sop

What years were you a Corps member? 1979

Keith's comments about drum lines were interesting. Of course, a drum line CAN play a solo and be "musical". And, the "pit" instruments CAN be an aid too.

But, the key to being "musical" is to "play musically"! Sounds silly maybe, but the drum line must:

. play charts which not only provide the
underlying cadence (beat) but musically
enhance the total piece. Just "throwing
notes" doesn't cut it.

. demonstrate control of their
instruments, being able to fully use
musical techniques .. varying ranges of
tempo & volume, differing meters (when
appropriate), accents, etc.

Drum rudiments are nothing but prearranged ways to handle certain patterns and sticking .. it is up to the arranger to group these musically. Lots of good corps arrangers have done just that for many years .. until the current decline


The drum rudiments also allow the drum line to enhance their musical and visual precision .. they are doing everything exactly the same way!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

Drum parts changed for several reasons:

1) To avoid tics. Santa Clara was one of the first to do this by lowering the heights of the sticks, but they still played some complicated - and rudimental - stuff.

2) After that, the drills became so complicated and fast-moving that it became impossible to play anything hard.

3) As more "music educators" took over drum corps, rudimental playing somehow became "unmusical".

4) I also believe there is a lack of rudimental drummers left in the world (at least of drum corps age - some of us old farts are still hanging in there!). Rudimental drumming was NEVER big in bands - drum corps kept those traditions alive - and since the corps don't use them as much anymore, the vicious circle becomes complete.

All of this is from a PERFORMER'S perspective. I'd be interested to hear Dave's opinions from a JUDGING perspective, and how THAT area has changed and therefore influenced what drummers play.

By the way - John Anderson just sent me a CD with the 1965 and 1966 Norwood shows on them, as well as the 1966 Royal Airs. I'm not sure who was writing the drum book at the time for Norwood (Mitch Markovitch was doing RA), but no one can say that THOSE parts weren't MUSICAL - as in adding to the overall musical effect of the presentation. And they sure were rudimental!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Bob, the changes in drumming came from many causes, but the biggest is that new drum instructors don't understand, appreciate or know how to teach the rudimental system.

BTW .. the 1965-66 Imperials drum line was taught by (and arrangements done by) Bill Strauts, an Imperial alum. He was taught by Frank Arsenault and Dick Brown!

With regard to the changes in drumming and the JUDGING system, here are some thoughts.
I judged this for 26 years .. but some other judges might give other inputs too.

Remember that execution judging was always based on the concept of UNIFORMITY. This was also true in percussion. The standard was uniformity .. in attacks, releases and consistency of patterns... both in segments and the total ensemble. While the score sheets did have columns for ticks titled .. taps, rolls, diddles and drag rudiments ... these were really just for ease of reference use by the judge and the instructors.

The thing being judged was a drum line's ability to execute in perfect unison. Credit for "difficulty" was given separately (in changing ways over the years). As drum performances changed, and drum lines became larger and became "mobile", the technical difficulty of difficult rudimental patterns was replaced with the "timing" difficulty of patterns done by large lines and being played while moving.

In theory, these were roughly "equal" in trade-off ... but as the standards for performance and evaluation were being set by DCI and the instructors, who strongly favored "showmanship" and "effect" over precision and execution .... judging systems began to change. The "tick" system (penalties for non-uniformity) was replaced by opinion based "evaluation". Credit for difficulty was eliminated.


As a result, the changes came about because of the power and desires of certain people and groups. Just like most changes in society, the ones with the power win.

In point of fact, the rudimental system in corps drumming is almost dead. I doubt that most corps instructors even bother with it (many don't even know it). Too bad, because that system was the primary basis for the precision and uniformity of early drum corps lines ... legendary drum lines.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

So based on what Dave is saying in the previous post:

"The "tick" system (penalties for non-uniformity) was replaced by opinion based "evaluation"."

Sounds to me like DCI Judging is fundamentally similar to the process that the American Kennel Club (AKC) uses for dog shows--an opinion based "evaluation" by the judge on whether the animal represents the "standard" for it's respective breed.

Dave,

What was the last year that you judged? I know you were still in the activity for all three of my years in the Cavaliers (74-76), but I don't remember if you were still doing it when I returned to Norwood in 78-79 (or Spirit in 1980). Did your leaving have anything to do with the system changing?

And Bill Strauts was our instructor in 1972, then I instructed with him in 1978. In fact, he asked me to come help him - I was teaching the cadet corps with John and Joe Donnelly at the time. I loved Bill and was very sad to hear of his passing. His wife's brother marched in the cadet corps with me in 70-71 (Dean Friebus).

And I LOVE John Anderson's dog show analogy!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73, 78-79

Dog show analogy!

This is great. It is exactly the same in concept ... except that there is not as much training in setting the standards!

The theory is that each aspect of a drum corps performance (brass, percussion, marching, visual and effect) is supposed to meet set standards for each level of
credit. But, each judge is really setting his/her own standards ... and the focus is primarily on "impact" and "effect", NOT precision and performance.

It is still amazing to me that a corps can win a DCI National with a score over 98! When you really look at their performance, you can see and hear many errors in performance and uniformity. This gets them a 98% score?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

So in DCI contests you really don't win "First Place" you win "BEST IN SHOW."

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 1959-66 (Cadets 59-61 Imperials 62-66)

John: an interesting play on words.

Of course, in any contest the winning corps is the "best in show".

But, the SCORE they receive that night is supposed to have some meaning with respect to ALL the corps in the country and the NATIONAL STANDARDS for evaluation. I am not sure that this is still a fact.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer 1958-63, asst. instructor 1964-71; quartermaster 1964-66

What years were you a Corps member? member 1958- 1963

I stole this posting from the Pioneer web site. I like some of the comments and thought I would share. To give credit, these are the comments of Bobby Lindsey -Pioneer staff memeber.



I agree that Pioneer will eventually have to deal with the amplification issue. However, I don't agree on the use of amplification within the activity.

For some reason, it seems as though only within this activity is there such a passion from some to "progress" beyond the fundamental elements that make the drum & bugle corps what it is, a unique musical marching ensemble. All other activities seem capable of existing as time goes by, without the need to "evolve" into something beyond those fundamental aspects that make it unique.

For example, the ice figure skating activity seems content with using blades on ice as its defining element, even though there are similar activities with comparable elements such as in-line skating and roller skating. They realize that if they take away the blades and ice, even though it may create exciting new possibilities, then it would no longer be ice figure skating. In drum corps, there are those that want to "evolve" their way right out of the fundamental aspects and uniqueness of the drum and bugle corps activity, to eventually exist as a "drum & bugle corps" in name only.

There is obviously a resistance by some to specifically define what a drum & bugle corps is, and how it differs from a brass band, a marching band, or any other musical ensemble. What exactly is a drum & bugle corps? When that question can be answered logically, it may aid in defining how far we could/should go toward evolving our activity.

A symphonic orchestra is no longer a symphonic orchestra if they get rid of all their strings, reeds, brass, and percussion instruments and replace them with electronic instruments and keyboards. I guess they could still call themselves a symphonic orchestra, but who are they trying to fool?

As far as amplification goes, some say that its just another step (predicted long ago) toward the use of electronics in general. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. Is it still a drum & bugle corps... who are they trying to fool?

I think that DCI has the right to, and should be able to set all of its rules and criteria for competition as they see fit, but they do not speak for the drum & bugle corps activity, nor do they define what a drum & bugle corps is. How can they when they have literally embraced taking the bugle out of drum & bugle corps. If they are so much into change, why not a name change from DCI to MBI (Marching Band International), it certainly fits better and is much more logical. Thank God for DCM!

Anyway, for as long as Pioneer exists, I hope we'll always march with "G" bugles (as long as they keep making them) and will likewise stay away from amplification and electronics (again, hopefully) until we are no longer given a choice competitively. Until then, let the debate continue!

What did you do in the Corps? 2nd Sop

What years were you a Corps member? 1979

I researched the issue of rudiments in percussion with my school's band director who directs the drum line at Mariner High in Cape Coral. He tells me that the Florida Bandmaster's Association (FBA) judges marching percussion as part of the musical score in three categories (a) clarity, (b) execution or technique, and (c) appropriateness to repertoire. Marching band shows are measured by the "degree" to which these things are performed. For judging purposes, it would be assumed that each marching unit begins with 100 points and then deductions are made to whatever degree the judge feels the three categories fail to meet their expectations. So, basically, rudiments are not measured, except for their influence on a performer's ability to have an effect on the overall unit's musical score.

Is this similar to the current Drum Corps scoring method for music and in particular, percussion? From what I can remember each element had roughly 1/4 of the total score with a larger percentage going to general effect. Am I correct?

What did you do in the Corps? Fr. Horn Bugle, xylophone, flag

What years were you a Corps member? end of '72 to 1977

Hi,
Keith,I didn't read the entire message you posted on
Aug.8th you got from I think someone from Pioneer,but
I will,but the main reason I'm writing this message is
that you made mention or it was in the other message
was the use of the words drum and bugle corps.Their isn't a drum corp today that can say their a drum and bugle corps.First of all they don't use bugles anymore
its trumpets and whatever the other instruments are
called.That's one of the reasons that they can play the music they have,playing music on bugles you hear
today from corps would probably be very difficult.
DCI makes no reference to bugles in their name,it's
just DRUM CORPS INTERNATIONAL.
One more note of interest,I have a recent issue of a
DCI MAGAZINE that has an advertisment for trumpets
by one of the company's that sell's instruments to
drum corps.I know there's people that will try to disagree,but that's what they use today.
I don't think anyone ever talked about this before
on the website,but after reading a few lines of your message I thought I'd mention it to everyone,to kind of set the record straight about this instrument.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957-1963

Jim,I was also was a brass player.I started out on soprano and than switched to french horn.I don't consider myself an expert as far as drums are concerned,but I realize it when I hear a good drum line.I've also seen and heard the best of the best from the past,in fact I can still listen to them now with the collection I have and with some of the recordings I have of DCI that I compare them with I still say in my opinion the older ones epescially from
the late fifties early sixties are still the best,based on sound,difficulty and also finesse.Up to maybe 1966 or 67 the sound of the drums stayed the same,than they started to tune them in differently,when that happened drum corps started to change maybe just minor changes but eventually it led to what we have today.
Some of the best drumlines I've seen where Blessed Sac,Bellville,Cavaliers,St.Kevins,Royalaires and even Norwood and what some of these drumlines played was not just rudiments,but very musical in many ways.
As far as hornlines that a whole different story.We
didn't play as loud as we could or blast as you put it
Sure there was parts that called for it,but not every
time we played something,and tone was always a concern
with not only us but other corps as well.Just listen to some of the corps back than.The BPM they use now
these corps could never play the music that we played,it would all sound like everyone was playing
vibrato.One thing about key changes,I don't about other drum corps,but when I was in Norwood,the horn instructors we had didn't think we were capable of
playing music in different keys,I always thought the
music we played and some of it was really nice,but I
always felt espescially when I listen to Norwood when I was in and some of the other drum corps back than to
the arrangements could have been done a lot better,but that's the way it goes I guess

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957-1963