I was trying to remember the last big win for our corps. I think it was 1970 when we won a show at Deerfield beating the Santa Clara Vanguards....they were a top corps then and a DCI finalist. The next night they beat us by a lot. That was probably our last win over a top corps.

What did you do in the Corps? baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 62, 63 Imperials 64-70

I wasn't around then but you are probably right. I believe I might have seen the Vanguard at a midwest show in 1970 but don't recollect the Imperials being in the contest.

Another question might be was when was the last time Norwood beat the Cavaliers. During my time 1962 and 1966, I recollect being within a point of them several times with the closest being the Midwest Dream in 1965 when we lost by about a half a point. But the only time I recollect seeing the Imperials beat the Cavaliers was the 1961 Lane Tech Standstill. 1961 was the Cavaliers undefeated season but I guess they only count field competition.

Wow, an interesting question!

Tom, you are probably right that the 1970 win was the last big win. But, Santa Clara wasn't a DCI finalist that year .. DCI didn't exist until 1972. They were however a very highly rated corps and DID win a lot of major shows.

Note: back then, when any TOP corps had an off night, it was possible for someone else to beat them. When DCI started, that became impossible. (I suppose that has to be called my "opinion", but I saw it happen over and over again).

John, maybe you are right .. but it always depends on "who" is doing the counting! If it is the Cavaliers, OF COURSE, standstills don't count.

But, the way that I see it .. THEY had just as much chance to win the standstill show as we did. We just went out and played ... so did they. Maybe they just weren't "ready"? Oh, well!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

It was July 4, 1970, the cadets marched 3 parades in that day, our last was Deerfield. Many of the Cadets stayed to watch the show. We were screeming when you won.

I wonder if Norwood's standstill victory in 1961 has ever been mentioned on the Cavalier's alumni site. It's probably not mentioned in Don Warren's book either.

Actually in 1970, Santa Clara only lost 2 shows that year and one was to us. And I believe they won VFW Nationals that year. The biggest win and there wasn't even a trophy, only a check.

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major

What years were you a Corps member? 65-69 Cadets, 69-72 Imperials

A follow-up to that story:

My Dad was on an airplane several years after that and happened to be sitting with Gayle Royer, director of Santa Clara. Dad noticed his SCV jacket, and they got to talking about drum corps. When Dad mentioned that he had been with Norwood in 1970, Royer buried his face in his hands, lamenting - even then - that Deerfield show as the only midwest show they lost on that tour! They beat the Cavaliers, Troopers, Madison, Kilties, Blue Stars, etc., but lost to Norwood.

And this was after Santa Clara had won a couple of DCI championships, but it STILL bothered him! So at least we made an impression.

As for big wins, I know the big three (Cavaliers, Guardsmen, and Phantom) weren't there, but the AL State Championship in 1979 still FELT big to us - at least we were the "best of the rest", at a time when the distance between a DCI corps and everyone else was getting ever-larger.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

I had an encounter with the late Mr Royer when I came to California in the mi-80s. Only mine was related to Royer being one of the judges who dumped Norwood at the 1965 VFW nationals--payback for an incident with his buddy Don Angelica which has been mentioned in earlier posts.

Too bad Bob's dad wasn't aware of that. Would have been a more interesting conversation. As I recollect Rick Maass had a conversation with Royer about that in 1965.

In retrospect that victory over his Santa Clara Vanguard in 1970 was sort of payback for 1965. Seems like Tom Grana and a few others from 1965 got to be a part of that victory over Santa Clara.

Tom, you brought back alot of good memories with that win over Santa clara in Deerfield. We always seemed to do good at that show. We did our usual marching of 3 parades that day, I think it went Brookfield,Evanston, and Deerfield. I don't think Santa Clara being on tour had all those parades to march, so they were pretty well rested, which made it even more impressive. It was either like that old sports axiom, anyone can beat anyone on any given day, or we were just plain good enough. I'll go with the latter. Unfortantely we rested on our laurels the next night, which I believe was Streator and lost to them by about 8 points. But if you remember we put on some good shows that year. We were just to inconsistent.

What did you do in the Corps? Drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1966-1971

Denny, your comments about Deerfield were good. I was there too, as I was still an assistant drum instructor with the Imperials.

I was also doing a GE judging field trial for CSJA that day, so I was in the GE "box" watching the show.

Santa Clara came out and did their show. But they weren't really in a "groove" and were a bit uninspired. They were good though. BTW, I had watched their drum line rehearsing earlier and they really seemed EXTREMELY confident that they had this show "in the bag". It wasn't even a contest for them, just an exhibition! (Their show looked like it too!)

The Imperials came out and really played. They were "in a groove", maybe because they had been playing all day! Their show was good.

The Santa Clara staff could NOT believe that they had lost to the Imperials. They were livid!

But, the next day at Streator, the Imperials were really tired and it showed! AND, Santa Clara came out MAD and inspired to show the world that the Imperials didn't deserve to beat them!

Personally, I suspect that a few judges also agreed with that and helped with "more appropriate" scoring.
But, that is just opinion and not provable now.

You were also correct, Denny, in observing that the Imperials were very inconsistent that year. A good show, a bad show, a "so-so" show ...

But, it was great to see the "big win" happen then and great to remember now!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Why did Norwood not go to Nationals in 70? I always wondered, because that was the last really good corps that had a chance to do well nationally, as proven by the Deerfield show. I know a few headed down to Miami as spectators, and we all know what happened on that trip. But I've always wondered what would have happened if the whole corps had gone to compete, done well - would 1971 and beyond have been different?

After all, when you look at the first DCI championship from 1972, we were right down with Phantom, Guardsmen, and others who would make finals in following years (we actually beat Phantom at the last show of 1972).

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, the Miami trip was detoured through Ohio where normally Norwood was strong. A lack of member depth in 1970 was evident in 1970 yet the heart felt corps members were set on heading for Nationals in Miami. The result of the DavidsMeyer-BlueBird crash didn't separate the corps but it did have a lasting effect on those injured and the death of a corps member.

Those factors took the air out of the corps though it really wasn't anybodys fault. Merely a fault that occured to alot of young teenagers. Fortunately alot of people saw the accident and assisted those injured not only on sight......but transportation to local hospitals.

I was at the church services and tried to talk to those involved in the accident but the response was always brief. A tough spot to come back from and move on with your life, a tough spot to have been involved with one so close who was better than we'll ever claim to be.

Long and short is......unification of the corps for the next year wasn't an easy chore......many decided not to participate. I can't blame them one bit, but I do understand.......

RJ

What did you do in the Corps? Wore winter clothes in the summer

Basically it was lack of money that we didn't go. As has been said in the past, we weren't as organized or sponsored as well as other corps. There was no way of telling in the spring, that we were good enough to go to Nationals. And by July, it was too late to come up with money and make the plans. So we went to Ashtabula and sent those that came up with the money to see the show on one of the busses, and the other went home.

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major

What years were you a Corps member? 65-69 Cadets, 69-72 Imperials

Tom,do you by any chance remember the point spread
between Norwood and SCV from the contest in
Deerfield?

John you asked a very interesting question,when was
the last time Norwood actually beat the Cavaliers,
in a field contest.I thought about that myself a few
times and it made me think.
Well after looking back during the time I was in
Norwood and even after I left,the last time Norwood
beat them that I know and I'm sure a lot of people
will be in for a shock when they read this,it was
way back in 1956 at VFW Nationals in Dallas,and was
only by a couple of tenths.Norwood was second and
the Cavies were third.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

What a shame. That 1970 corps was strong, and if we could have built on that...other corps had long weak periods and came back (Garfield, Boston, Madison).

It was always the money, which lead to disorganization, which lead to LESS money, and so on...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Too bad Gayle Royer has passed away. We could ask HIM what the score was .. I'll bet that he never forgot it!

I agree with Rich about the last time we beat the Cavaliers in a field show .. VFW in Dallas (1956) sounds right to me. That is a LONG time!

Disagree with Bob about money being the BIG problem for our corps. I say it was disorganization and poor (inconsistent and thin) management!

With an organized and competent management, we would have found money. We would have created a supportive alumni and booster group! We could have recruited and kept members!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Rich, I don't remember the exact spread but my guess would be between .5 and 1.5 points. As noted earlier SCV beat us solidly the next night.

Dave,

I think they go hand in hand. I think sometimes we didn't attract the best people into management BECAUSE they knew the money situation was so impossible to deal with. It was a vicious circle, though which one came first is like the chicken or the egg...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, it's true that most people don't want to walk into a buzz-saw!

But, the money problem was just one of the problems caused by PREVIOUS poor management. They all just kept growing through the years.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I googled Norwood Park 1970 Deerfield and came up with the following. It was only a posting, not factual info. July 4 the Imperials won by 2.15 points, but on July 5th in Streator SCV won by 13.5 points. I'm still searching for the facts, but it sounds right to me.

Here's the scores, as listed at corpsreps.com:

1957 VFW Nationals - Dallas

1 St. Vincent's Cadets 94.250
2 Imperials 92.650
3 Cavaliers 92.400
4 Audubon Bon Bons 91.100
5 Black Knights 90.000
6 Vaqueros 83.420
7 Andrew Johnson Presidents 79.000

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Donna - while I don't remember how much Norwood won by the first night, that other spread sounds right (I remember it being HUGE like that).

And the Nationals scores had to be 1956, NOT 1957, because 1957 was Miami, and it was the first Nationals the Cavaliers won.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Yes, Dallas VFW was 1956. 1957 was Miami, where the big fight between Cavaliers and St. Vincent's took place.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 1963

Dave,

Have you ever heard Art Kurth's description of that fight on Larry McCormick's "When Drum Corps Was Really Drum Corps" video series? Hilarious!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

No, I haven't heard that. But, like most events, the stories which come later always seem to "magnify" the event.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I must apologize. I copied the scores from CorpsReps.com but keyed the year incorrectly.

It was, indeed, 1956 VFW in Dallas.

Of course, I am too young to have remembered that long ago - unlike some others here.

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

That's okay Larry about typing the wrong year.I was
pretty young to at that time,and I can remember
just a little of what everyones reaction was back
here at home when we heard the results from
Dallas, it was hard to believe for some of us.

And as everyone can see by the scores,Norwood just
made it pass the Cavaliers.If my memory serves me
correctly it was Norwood's drum line that made the
difference.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

I watched the video,When Drum Corps Was Really Drum
Corps,the one about the fight in Miami in 57'don't
remember too much how they described it and it is
true about how a story can change as time goes by.

I'm sure if you asked members from St.Vincents you
would get another side of it as well.

But what I remember from being there,is that every
one knew the Cavaliers shouldn't have won that
contest.The judging came into question right away
and also there was a strong suspicion that the
judges were influenced before the contest even
started and this just added more fuel to the fire
that was started earlier in the season between the
two corps.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

Rich, an interesting post. WHAT happened between the corps earlier in the season and WHY did you feel that the Cavaliers should NOT have won?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Dave going into that contest everyone knew that
St.Vincents was going to add one more title to
there long list.Again this was due to not only
there talent but also there reputation,boy,that
sounds familier don't it?

It was something you could feel being there.I don't
think anyone even considered the Cavaliers winning
it,except maybe them.

When St.Vinnies put on there show,you could tell
that they were going to win it.There really was no
question about that.In fact this contest was the
first time a lot of us seen any of the Junior
Corps from the east.

After the contest was over,the scores were
announced,and the fight was stopped,the fingers
started to point right away at how it was judged
and the judges themselves.

As far what happened between the corps earlier in
the year,it would be easier to read about it in
"Building the Green Machine"you can get a better
idea about it.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

One of the factors in that show was drum heads, believe it or not. It rained during finals, and St. Vincents still had calfskin heads while the Cavaliers had the new plastic ones. Calfskin heads don't do well in rain - they basically become oatmeal, with obvious results on the score. Plastic, however, is not effected. In fact, the Reilly Raiders Senior Corps borrowed the Cavaliers' drums for that reason, and they won, which is why they came to rescue the Cavaliers during the fight, even though they were from the East.

As for who deserved to win, who can really say? But the Cavaliers' record over the next 15 years - as opposed to Vinnie's, who soon folded - would at least seem to give SOME credit to the right corps winning. Considering that drum corps was considerably biased towards the East coast at that time, it's hard to believe the fix was in for an upstart Midwest group.

But that's just me...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, a major reason (perhaps not the only one) that St. Vincents didn't last too long after 1957 is that the VFW barred them from particpating in VFW competitions for THREE years.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Weren't they from Bayonne, NJ? They got their revenge on everybody later by giving us the Bridgemen (sorry, Sheila).

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Yes, the St. Vincent Cadets were from Bayonne, NJ. They were National Champions for many years in the 1940s and 50s. They are also the corps which started the National Dream contest, held in Roosevelt Stadium there.

They were actually a very good drum corps. Innovative too. They were a fairly tough crowd too, coming from a poor and working class area.

It is very likely that some people from the St. Vincents corps were involved with the Bridgemen. As I recall, St. Vincents folded in 1962 and the Bridgemen formed shortly after that. The Bridgemen didn't become the "Marching Bananas" until they were "remade" by Bobby Hoffman in the 70s.

Some others might have a better memory on this.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

When you talk about Reilly coming to the Cavaliers aid that sure sounded typical, because it seemed that they always needed somebody to come to there aid. They always did seem to get the decisions on and off the field in their favor. I recall that in the McHenry fight in 1970, we got kicked out and they did not. Dave, you probably would know better, but I believe the rule stated any units involved in fighting BOTH would be kicked out of the contest. In this case the punishment was one-sided. I will never forget when we all went over to the dressing room(which the Cavies and us shared, which was a bad idea to begin with)Bob Briske was already there and lining up JUST the Norwwod guys to ask questions. I'm not saying we were innocent, but there was no question from the start who was going to suffer most.

What did you do in the Corps? Drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1966-1971

I had heard of the St Vincent's incident although by the time I got to the Imperials in 1962 St Vincent's was not an factor or the national seen and I don't recollect competing against them.

I do recollect reading that in 1959 the American Legion Nationals was held in Minneapolis with Blessed Sacrament in 1st, Cavaliers in 2nd, St Vincent's in 3rd (Norwood finished 6th). At that time the American Legion did not have a finals, so that night a contest was held in Stillwater with the top 8 corps minus St Vincents. I assume they were not invited because of the previous incident. Stillwater was more interesting because the Cavaliers and Sac tied for first with Norwood jumping over a number of other corps to finish in the next spot (2nd).

John, that 1959 show in Stillwater was fun. And it sure made us feel a lot better!

St. Vincents was still a fine corps in 1959, but by 1960 they had lost a lot of members.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

That was one of the biggest changes in placement that I can recollect. It must have been fun to be a part of that day.

I have a Drum Corps World Issue from 1959 that discusses that show and nationals. I'll have to copy it to a pdf file and see if the webmaster can post it somewhere on the site.

Stillwater - what a GREAT show! I don't know if it's still going on, but I know it was as late as 1980. Tiny little town, but they actually had back-to-back shows on two consecutive nights. On tour, it was nice to stay in the same place more than one day.

My favorite memory was Blue Devils in 1976. Cosmo Barbaro was judging percussion GE from the rickety press box, and it was swaying as he did - we thought it was coming down! Gus was a BIG guy!

I checked in Jodeen Popp's book, and Vinnies only survived two or three more years after the 1957 Nationals. They dropped to 9th at AL Nationals in 1958; 3rd to SAC and Cavaliers in 1959; they don't show up at either Nationals in 1960; 10th at VFW in 1961; and then they folded. The St. Andrew's Bridgemen formed two or three years later, so I'm sure there were some old Vinnies people still involved.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

After my last posting on this topic about 57'
National's in Miami,I listened to the recording's
from that contest,and BOB there is a difference in
the sound between the two drumlines of the Cavaliers
and St.Vincents,so that could have been a factor in
the outcome.But like I said in one posting,there
was a strong suspicion that the judges were
influenced in there scoring.I can remember that this
spread like wild fire.

But this is something that you could on and on about
and never really come to a conclusion.

There was at one time,depending on where the contest
was held,and the judges that there,you could almost
tell what place you were going to finish in,as well
as everyone else.This was so true,especially in
Wisconsin,with the Judges Association they had.They
were always Pro-Wisconsin Corps.

This went on for awhile,but than,when they formed
CSJA,many changes took place after that.

By the way I came across St.Vincent's web-site not
long ago.I remember looking for it a long time ago,
but could pull it up,not sure how long its been
active.It's pretty interesting to look through.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

CSJA fixed a lot of the problems with mid-west judging, and Rick Maas was a big part of that. Apparently the Mid-American was awful! And I remember dreading State Fair every year, because they used the last few of those guys, and you never knew WHAT was going to happen! They especially loved inspections...I think it was like the musician's union, where they had to judge one show a year to keep their card active.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

As Dave reminded me in another post, it was ALL-American, not MID-American.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

John Anderson: your info on the 1957 VFW would be of real interest on this thread.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I think you mean 1959 American Legion and Stillwater that night.

I was thinking of copying several articles from that 1959 Drum corps World and asking the webmaster to post then on the site as a pdf. If this isn't possible, I'll just try to copy the text to a forum posting.

There are a number of other Norwood articles in drum corps publications that I have from my era that could be posted in a similar manner. In looking for information on "Wild Bill" I came across a site that had such excepts from late 50s to early 60s senior corps and I recollect that the Blessed Sac website has similar newspaper articles.

I also have a newspaper clipping from 1956 which talks about Norwood's 2nd place finish at nationals. Which I'll try to scan as well. Don't know when this will get done as I have to spend some time with Turbo Tax software.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone--Cadets 1959 through 1961 Imperials 1962 through 1966