Wow! Gas and diesel prices are going UP! This might change how some DCI corps operate.
See the post (made on another thread) by John Tomaszek:

Dave, you just gave me a great idea for a youth activity. Local kids will join a group and learn how to march, play drums and bugles, etc. They will compete with other youth groups on a local level. By only planning 1 or 2 major trips a year, the activity will be affordable. Can history repeat itself??? Maybe gas prices will help - but I doubt it.

-------------------

What a great idea! Local activity, affordable ... maybe even local kids again?

What are the chances?

At the least, you can expect DCI corps to start changing their "touring" plans!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I doubt it. As long as there are "rich" music majors to fill the ranks and fans to fill the stands, DCI will go on and on. It's like the Cubs - they don't have to be GOOD, they just have to sell beer.

DCI won't change until there aren't 12 corps to fill finals.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, you may have hit on the success formula for DCI... sell beer at shows!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

In the last few years it has cost about $5.00 a mile to move a drum corps.
This year that will be closer to $9.00 a mile.
That would be for 5 coaches ,2 tractor trailers and 1 utility truck. Then there are the gas powered trucks and cars.
Most of the corps will travel 10,000 to 12,000 miles this summer.
The coat of diesel was $3.35 a gallon in January, it's now over $ 4.30 a gallon.
Budget coast of fuel are going to be a big concern for everyone. Food cost are also going to an issue.

Wow! Maybe John Tomaszek is right! These escalating costs might force a change in how corps operate.

Maybe extensive touring will be cut back?
Maybe a return to local (and affordable?) shows?

Only time will tell.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

And while there are WAY fewer total corps than before DCI, they are spread more evenly across the country, so if there was a return to at least SOME localized competition, the West coast corps wouldn't feel as isolated as they once did.

But I still think we're a LONG way from that happening. How many of us are curtailing our driving right now? Or, for that matter, have much choice to do so?

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Don't know if I'd completely argee with West Coast corps being local. It's a day's drive from the Bay Area (Santa Clara and Blue Devils) to LA (Pacific Crest) and Seattle is even further. Denver is closer to Los Angeles than Seattle.

Seems to me that the combination of Cavaliers, Rockford, Madison, Iowa Colts, and Pioneer are the only group that has the possibility of a circuit with a reasonably small geographic area--sort of like Norwood, Vanguard, Cavaliers, Royal Airs, Kilts, Madison and Racine Boy Scouts from the mid-60s.

This will likely be a challenging year for DCI. High fuel prices plus a change in venue for their national contests.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone--Cadets 1959 through 1961 Imperials 1962 through 1966

John, don't forget that there are also a number of "Open Class" corps in DCI too. There are more than just the top 12 "World Class" corps.

And there are now a number of alumni corps which could also participate in "local" or regional shows.

It is doable if they want to.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

A regional show on the west coast is pretty boring. You can usually show up at the end and catch the one or sometimes two entertaining performances (Blue Devils and somethings Santa Clara) at the show. The Renagades aren't even that fun to watch anymore unless you are interested in checking out the color guard's "body art" (tatoos and piercings) or unusual hairstyles.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone--Cadets 1959 through 1961 Imperials 1962 through 1966

DCI changed the touring schedule years ago to cut down on mileage and hours.
They also shortened the season by a week.
I don't think that there is going to be any changes in the next couple of years, even with the fuel costs.
But you never know, DCI is always looking at issues like this.

Huh?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I think this is a really good topic, because this year quite possibly may end up a replay of the mid to late 70s dramatic decline in corps. If we think back, during that time we were going through a similar fuel crisis. The cost of fuel, adjusted for inflation, is roughly what it is today. During those years DCI seemed to show absolutely no consideration for the corps when scheduling their tours. They would send the corps on that God awful southern swing and into areas where no drum corps really existed. It was strictly for their PR purposes or delusions of grandeur to send the corps unnecessarily into those regions at a time where the economy was much worse than it is today, and people would sit in hour-long lines to fill up their tanks. If memory serves us correctly, there was a very heavy cost to the drum corps community during those years, as many corps either failed or folded under the strain of out-of-control budgets and excessive travel expenses. The list of corps that called it quits during those years and have since folded under the strain of not being able to meet DCI's extensive travel commitment is staggering and much too long to list here.

Consider also the fact that the local shows, which either small corps or communities sponsored, are just not there anymore. This creates a whole new set of problems for all of the corps now competing. How to regionalize their travel itinerary when there is such a small amount of shows to choose from. For some it is impossible. For others, they are still going to have to travel great distances for shows to compete in.

Another reason for the decline of regional corps shows is also DCI induced. The cost to put on a show is again, staggering! Who can afford to pay the prices that the DCI member corps command for their participation? Plus, are there enough corps to adequately fill out a competitive show without going into serious debt? The answer to the above is sadly...NO. Why should potential show sponsors pay in excess of $25,000 for a 6 or 7 corps show when they can sponsor a band show for 1/4th the cost or less???? It is pure economics as I see it. It is obvious that DCI making one bad decision after another, with their total lack of foresight or vision, has created much of their own problem. People are only going to sponsor a show if it affordable and they can possibly turn a decent profit. That is not possible now in a regional spectrum.

Going back to DCI and the gas crisis......It brings to light 2 simple questions.
1. Has DCI ever really shown consideration for the financial well being of the corps in their scheduling?
Answer: There is no evidence that would lead anyone to draw that conclusion.

2. What makes us think that DCI has suddenly seen the light and will do things differently in this fuel and economic crisis??????
Answer - You know the answer!

My guess is that unfortunately drum corps will have some large problems without major adjustments to their travel schedules. It won't necessarily hit the top corps this year, but will have a heavy impact on the lesser division corps. Without the lesser division corps.......what happens to DCI?????

Regards to all,
Jerry

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Jerry seems to be correct in his assessment of the DCI staff. The only responses that I have seen are:

1. have the member corps start special "fuel cost" donation appeals
2. Reduce the number of judges at some (lesser) shows to save money.

Nothing of any real substance to deal with the root problems. We'll see if they do anything more substantial when planning for NEXT year. (Hope there are still some corps left)

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Troopers had a donation jar at their souvie wagon for fuel costs.

Hi Terri!

Can you pass along a note to Jeff to email me? It's been a long time since Mother and I have talked.

How's things?

Jerry

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

An amazing thing just happened to me.

I was coming home late tonight from Peoria on I39 when I stopped off at a BP near Toluca Illinois to get gas at about midnight.

As I'm filling up, a Colts bus and two Semi trucks pull in. I finish filling up and drive over to the front of the building where all the kids start filing in. I asked to speak to a Manager. The bus driver told me he was the lead driver.

I pulled out my wallet and handed him all the cash I had (about $18). I told him it wasan't much but that was all I had and I wanted to give him a donation for fuel.

I had a brief conversation with him. Told him I marched in the 80's with a now folded corps and was a Colts fan. I also told him I was just at the Cavies show where all the souvenir booths had fuel donation canisters. I told him I wish I could give him more but that was all the cash I had.

He has very grateful and shook my hand and said thanks. I then left. The whole incident lasted less than five minutes. I didn't give him my name either.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 - 1983

What a cool story, Jim! Also, the Colts are very enjoyable on the field. They were last year, too.

At Naperville, on Sunday night, Don Warren was briefly interviewed on the P.A. system. One of the corps was on the field ready to go... not the best timing. Well, when asked what Don thought of the future of drum corps, he said it's bright, but he wouldn't be at all surprised to see regional competition become the thing, because of fuel costs. He said that his corps had budgeted $75,000 for fuel this summer, and he thinks that that won't be enough. Don was sharp, to keep it short, as he saw that a corps was positioned and at attention. Well done, Don!

Can't wait to watch the same 6 (fairly local) corps compete against each other, locally, 30 times next year... over and over and over again! Ugh!

Bill, that is what a lot of corps shows were like in the 50's and 60s. But, there were always one or two corps from "out of the area" who would come in for appearances too.

I don't think that you'll see "30" local shows though.
We'll see what happens.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I remember, Dave. My first show was in '55. Yes, I'd see the same corps quite a bit, with a "stranger" showin' up, here and there. I only went if the Norwood Park Imperials were competing. The Cavies were only 7 or 8 years old back then, and yet, I remember the Imperials-Cavies rivalry well... even in the stands! Don Warren says he remembers it very distinctly too.

Maybe the drum corps should change to HYBRID powered busses and trucks?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

They already have hybrid instruments that make them bands and not drum corps, so your idea makes sense.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Not drum corps in your mind, Jerry.

Jim, NOT drum corps in the view of the vast majority of fans and alumni or former member's eyes. I have a masters in Music Education with over 40 yrs. experience, with 25+ plus of those years in drum and bugle corps, I think I know the difference. Bands have trumpets in Bb, Eb, and C with assorted other brass instruments. Then you have the woodwinds as the definitive wind instrument category that is the lone difference between the two mediums. If George Hopkins ever gets his way, they will be adding woodwinds as soon as he can convince a majority of DCI members to vote them in. He has been trying for years, and in my humble opinion, it is only a matter of time, maybe just a few years before he gets his way and drum corps actually become bands in every aspect. Simple quotient here. Drum & Bugle corps are shrinking in the number of competitive units each and every year for various reasons, mostly financial. On the other hand, there is an explosion of activity in the competitive band arena. Drum corps are out numbered by about ratio of over 150 to 1, and that is a low estimate. DCI has killed the drum corps activity as we knew it and almost entirely by any standards of measurement become elitist in it's approach to the activity. The lone exceptions to their monopolistic tendencies and dictatorial control of the activity are the last 40 or so units still operating. After this summer and possibly next with the gas prices, there will very likely be even less corps actively participating or in operation.

Jim, I respect you and your point of view, but it isn't drum and BUGLE corps any longer as the vast majority of us see it or know it. It's marching music entertainment, or the closest you could call it would be drum and brass band. We could go on forever with this debate, but in reality the drum corps activity, led by continual bad or self-serving decisions by DCI, has morphed closer to being a band, and farther away from even the loosest definition of a tradition drum and bugle corps. The reasoning is simple. There once was a difference in the playing key of the instruments. We agree that the Bb instruments are more 'in tune' than the G instruments are or were. Just like a Bb trumpet is much more in tune that an Eb or C trumpet. But it was THE DIFFERENCE between the two mediums. Good or bad, it was the major thing that made drum corps unique and different than bands, other than the exclusion of woodwinds.

The main problem facing drum corps is that because of economics, and the demand for members to be already trained at a extremely high level of proficiency to even belong to a top DCI corps, bands have profited from this "fallout" and have become the activity of choice for over 90% of the kids playing musical instruments today. Bands are much less expensive to belong to, AND, many of the top bands at BOA now have improved themselves to a point where they are in the performance class of all but the top 6 to 8 drum corps. I'm NOT saying that it is good or it is right, but it IS reality. I truly wish it were the other way around, but sadly it isn't. It pains me to see the shape that the drum corps activity is in these days. I can remember when there were 2 days of prelims at Illinois State and hundreds of competitive corps in that state. Same goes for many other states in all regions of the country. Now, you see that number of units competing only at the state band marching band championships across the country. It's a trend that is good for bands, but it hurts to see that it no longer exists in drum corps. The fact that a kid that never played before, could join a drum corps and find a worthwhile activity to grow, learn and have fun in is not possible in the DCI spectrum of corps. That is the tragedy and legacy of DCI.

Jim, again, I respect your opinion and loyalty to the drum corps activity. You are the type of person who will keep the activity alive long after DCI passes into oblivion. But it isn't by coincidence that DCI has moved into the same building as Bands of America. Take a close look and see who the board of directors for DCI is aligning itself with, and the eventual outcome becomes painfully obvious. DCI is on it's last legs, and eventually, if they haven't done it already, BOA will buy them out, not the other way around like they tried to do years ago. There is strength in numbers, and DCI no longer has that kind of strength, while BOA has an enormous following. It is very sad, but none the less a real possibility. Then what happens to the drum corp activity? My guess is a rebirth with new leaders and separated from what is now DCI. That's my hope for the future of the activity.

In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, senior and all age corps are the future of the drum and bugle corps activity, not DCI. The corps like you march in and the all age corps like Kilts, Minnesota Brass, Chops, Renegades, Anaheim's Alumni corps, the DCA corps, and all others like them are all the future. Within those corps will come forth the people who start new corps once DCI releases it's death grip on the activity. Once that happens, corps will again regionalize and new junior corps will start to sprout up all over again, as drum corps once again becomes a viable and affordable activity for kids.

On the other side of the coin. No band will ever reach the performance levels of the top 6 or 7 DCI corps such as BD, Cavaliers, Phantom, SC, Cadets, and three or 4 others. Those corps just have too much money and talent to ever be overtaken in the skill area or go down the tubes because of financial difficulties. However, how long will it be before DCI or some other form of DCI takes those top corps and just travels the country like a traveling sideshow, leaving the rest behind? It's possible, and you can't deny it. The CEO of DCI even said that he could see that possibility in the future. DCI just may become an organization that has about 8 -10 units that tour the country together. Then it is up to you and people like you to rebuild the activity once again.

I love drum corps very much, but not what DCI as an organization has done to it. If there is a pure form of drum corps, it is the all age corps that represent that form best. Keep on defending the drum corps activity Jim. It is important for people like you to lead the movement and fight for the activity. You are the next generation of corps directors and instructors. You need to believe in the activity. The goal should be keeping the faith and encourage people to become involved in the activity. You will be among the people who will have to rebuild the activity once DCI has run it's course and is long gone. So, I believe the activity will be in good hands. My best wishes for you and your corps success this year and in years to come. Please don't take any of this personally, because it was not an attack on you, just an indictment of how the more self-serving individuals (DCI hierarchy) has led the activity to the edge of the cliff. It's up to good people like you to keep the majority of corps from drinking the DCI cool-aid and jumping with them.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Here we go again. I wonder how many times this discussion has played itself out on this forum, not to mention every other corps with an active alumni presence.

I don't care for modern drum corps much either, but it's their gig now. There are probably people out on this forum who didn't like drum corps in the 70's, with keyboards and timpanis, two-valve instruments, and guards whose uniforms didn't match the corps. Things change, and us "old farts" won't always agree that it's for the better. So let today's kids have their drum corps, like we had ours. When the activity stopped playing only standard marches, it probably lost fans too.

I'm more concerned with how many kids will never have a chance to be IN a drum corps because of the increased proficiency level. I just hope that they find another outlet to keep them off the streets. And I don't think there's anyone left in drum corps today who would otherwise be in a gang! At least not a very intimidating one, anyway...

Having seen a few shows the past few years, and talked to guys in the corps, they STILL get out of it what we all did - discipline, friendships, musical knowledge (although much more advanced than WE got), and a sense of teamwork, which they might not learn anywhere else. And some of them still respect the past and what we did to make sure they could do what they do.

I will always be an "old fart", but I also realize that those days are gone. So I let them have their modern drum corps, and I watch old videos!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

It isn't the instruments that makes it drum and bugle, it's the essence of the what we use to do as far as striving to put on a show that is entertaining and competitive. It's about the friendships and the sense of belonging one has within the corps. It's finding out that the people in other corps, your dreaded competition, is not unlike your corps. If it was the instruments that were weakening the activity, I would agree whole-heartedly, but the fact is that in my time I played on a g-d bugle, g-f bugles that had a valve and a rotor, two valves, and three valves and in no case did it change the unique aura that you only find in drum corps. The multi-keyed instruments are the same, the spirit of drum corps lives on. It sounds different, but when did drum corps ever sound the same. It always changes. It's as if it's alive.

God, whoever thought I'd be conversing with Jerry Davidson and Bob Shreffler in 2008. This is an awesome media and to think of all of the times we've had together when we were young gives me goose-bumps. This technology rocks and it's only going to get better. Hats off to you, Dave, on sustaining this board. Thanks!

Bob,

You hit the nail on the head. The number of kids that will not have the opportunity to be in drum corps because of the required proficiency levels is really my worry also. That would not be the case if it were not for DCI, their policies, and leadership or lack thereof. DCI has crushed the competition (DCM, Badgerland, Illinois Association, etc.) who supported and protected the small neighborhood corps. DCM and Roman Blenski, a former Imperial, did a great service for drum corps and ran shows independent from DCI and provided limited venues for the "small corps" to operate in and gave those corps a reason to exist and grow. I drew the line with DCI when they decided to take out Roman's operation. My beef is with DCI, NOT the drum corps activity. You are right, it is this generation's time and let them do what they choose with it. However, I was implying, with that rather long winded post, that drum corps will more than likely flourish and prosper WITHOUT the dictatorial and elitest nature of DCI. Through their stewardship, Drum corps is at an all time low in the number of corps and kids involved in the activity. It's all about the kids, not the organization that runs it. They must be delusional enough to think they are the marching music equivalent of the NFL, NBA and MLB and have franchise rights to control everything. That is the problem with drum corps and why it continues to shrink and service less kids each year. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Jim,
It is a trip talking to both you and Bob and I hope you are doing well. You are right in a way, it's not the instruments that hurts the quality, it never has been. No new technology has hurt drum corps from a performance standpoint, with the possible exception of amplification and vocal narratives. Those I can do without and they do take away from the purist view of the musical performances people come there to hear and see. But, none of the technologies of the past has hurt the quality, you are right. I taught and played on all the different variations of the bugles from 1 valve all the way to three valves. If you remember, oh, you wouldn't know this, LOL sorry, but I was one of the people present when we voted for grounding and expansion of the pit instruments and voted in favor of it. I voted in favor of many changes in the 70s, but there was always a major difference in the brass instruments that defined us as unique and it was the key of the brass instruments. Some may not see that as a defining characteristic, but good or bad, it was the benchmark difference. Going to Bb has changed the characteristic sound of the brass sections to a more in tune but darker sound with much less carrying power. On the other side of the coin, If you put ANY set of bugles into the talented hands of Blue Devils horn line, they would probably play them equally well, so the difference even though it is a small item to some, is the truly defining article that separates drum corps from bands, without of course the consideration of woodwinds.

See, the kids that are in band have a very similar experiences with their drum corps counterparts if they are a competitive band. They do the same things, play much of the same music, have the same feelings of camaraderie, do the same types of maneuvers written by many of the same writers, and travel to shows just like we did. They don't travel as much or tour during the summer, which is a major difference, but they do travel and have trips. So there isn't much to delineate them from a drum corps there. The key and the lack of woodwinds were the difference. My worry is that Hopkins may one day get his way and add woodwinds. Now THAT, would be the end of drum corps!

I was just using that one point to sort of drill it home the extreme amount of damage that DCI has done in the name of progress, and the disappearance of opportunities for the average kid to have a quality musical and growth experience through the drum corps activity. I am of the belief that the activity would once again thrive if there were different leadership at the top of the activity and DCI would just go away. Make no mistake, drum corps would survive without DCI Drum corps would probably thrive once again without them. They might even see a resurgence of activity and the creation of new associations and a brand new batch of junior corps springing up all over the country.

That, I guess was my point in all of this. Maybe it's time to get back to the real basics and the real reason that the drum & bugle corps activity was formed to begin with. Todays kids are in desperate need of the type of activity that all of us enjoyed and grew up with back in the day when we were young.

My sincere regards to both of you.

Jerry

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

This discussion has "morphed" into a discussion of the FUTURE of drum corps. As the above posters have stated, it seems clear that DCI has not been a friend of community level corps. In fact, the avaiable opportunities for normal (average talent) kids to enjoy the drum corps experience is very limited now.

The points made about competitive marching bands being a viable alternative are very true. My son was not able to march in the Cavaliers, for a variety of reasons. (He had been a member of the Cavalier Cadets for three years though).

Instead, he played in the drum line at his high school, Prospect High School in Mt. Prospect, Illinois. There he had the same kind of experiences as in drum corps, did the same type of drills, played excellent (and recognizable) music and the band did trips and many contests. They were state champions for many years and also did well in MBA/BOA. His drum instructor was the instructor for the Cavaliers. The band director was Dave Morrison, a former Imperial instructor and drum corps judge.

Other area high school bands have taken over the appeal for most kids. The state of Indiana developed an excellent system for encouraging marching bands and holds excellent state contests every Fall.

These kids don't need drum corps and they certainly don't need DCI.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I agree with your evaluation of what is and what might not be for drum corps in 2009.I'm uncertain of the outcome but I do know today's drum corps are under the dillusion of being taken care of.

When I marched my parents were under the dillusion of dropping me off with a couple bucks and I'd be fed and housed for the week end. Great on paper but pulling into a turnpike stop or the infamous A&W stamd was old in it's own time. A Burger King or McKie D's would've been a great switch. For those of the 60's.....we put up with Pine Pan at Peterson and broke into the post to sleep on the band stand to avoid the rain in the parking lot.

Nah, no ******** but it was part of the corps. Un airconditioned buses, smelly three day 4th of July uniforms was typical. I have to smile when alumni state they looked forward to wearing battle jackets. Viewing the replacement/updated uniforms.....I'd wear a double jacket.

My personal opinion for resolving the deficit the current corps will face this year and next is to eliminate the frills. Drop the 18 wheeler feed store and shower facility. Should a corps approach it in the correct manner they could get a jump on next year. It's called developing/strenthening the mothers and fathers club. Getting their butt out with their parents to sustain what they seek to achieve.

If a level of working their collective azzes out starting in the fall, there won't be much travel for the top ten next year. I wish them the best.....kinda wonder if they can sacrifice their practice time-which is expanded to a crock of chit.

Then again......drum corps is a youth organization to develope .........them guys and girls!

ralf

What did you do in the Corps? Soprano

Both of your points are well taken and right to the point.

Dave,
You are so right. The kids in competitive marching bands don't need drum corps and you are even more right that they don't need DCI. DCI has been a pox on the house of drum corps. It's time for them to be ushered to the door. The reasons for getting rid of DCI today are more compelling than they ever when they the drum corps got rid of the VFW and American Legion. In defense of the VFW and American Legion, they never strived to control all of the aspects of drum and bugle corps. They just had a set of rules that governed those that entered their contests, which for most was 3 or 4 a year. The rules at that time were too conservative and resisted too much change, so they were shown the door. DCI on the other hand controls all of drum corps and is too liberal in their rules which has led to many highly questionable results at major contests, but we don't need to open that can or worms again. They have systematically eliminated all of organizations/competition that would sponsor shows and give opportunities for community level drum corps to compete, i.e. VFW, American Legion, DCM, Badgerland, Illinois Association, All American, all of the east coast associations, Drum Corps World (World Open, Danny Thomas), CYO, and the list goes on and on. They, through their mismanagement have opened the doors for bands to rule the roost so to speak and draw the vast vast majority of kids eligible to play in a marching music organization. Like you said Dave, the kids don't need drum corps or DCI.

Ralph,
Have to agree with you on getting rid of the frills, which should include massive touring schedules to areas of the country where no drum corps really exist anymore. They also have to find a way to cut costs or they are doomed. You are right, they live under the dilusion that they will be taken care of. They need to do a real quick reassessment as to the ability of DCI to do that, and if they come to the same conclusion that many from the outside have, they either need to radically change their mode of operation or they just might find themselves up @^#$# creek without a paddle.

Both of you had great points.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Ralph added some great points. But, most of the examples of Imperials "inattention" that he cites were due to bad management and naive/ lazy parents.

Also, getting parents groups to work SOUNDS great, but most of the DCI corps (at least the touring types) don't HAVE parents groups. The kids come from all over the country to march with their selected unit for 2 months. That's it. Most never become part of an ongoing organization. Many of them only march for a year too!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Not only that, but most of the "kids" are 19-21, in college, and their parents aren't involved much in their daily lives, let alone supporting them in drum corps (other than monetarily).

The difference between the unhappiness towards DCI and the anger with VFW/AL is that the corps are HAPPY with the current situation, whereas DCI was started BY the corps because of the dictatorial positions of the veterans' groups. I doubt that outside of alumni forums like ours, many people ARE unhappy with it, because they weren't around to know what drum corps was like before. Again, it's their game now, both on AND off the field.

And Dr. Snyder hits it on the head in his reply to Jerry. If you talk to the kids in the corps today, they are JUST as excited about the activity as we were (whether "we" was the 80s, 70s, 60s, or 50s). They ARE getting out of it what we did. It's just a different type of kid benefitting. And there's no way to know if small community groups would make it anyway in today's "short attention span" generation. OUR drum corps year was really that - a full year. We might take a couple of weeks off in September, but then it was back to weekly and weekend practices all winter and spring. For these kids, it's much more condensed, as is everything else today. If we can't get results quickly, we're no longer willing to wait (see "Iraq War"). Now I'm REALLY drifting...

And I agree with you, Jim. The internet has allowed MANY of us to reconnect to people from our pasts, who we shared so much with. In our case, it was TWO eras - the Cadets in 70-71, and the Imperials in 78-79. So I add my thanks to Dave, Larry, and all the others who make this possible.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

"The difference between the unhappiness towards DCI and the anger with VFW/AL is that the corps are HAPPY with the current situation, whereas DCI was started BY the corps because of the dictatorial positions of the veterans' groups. I doubt that outside of alumni forums like ours, many people ARE unhappy with it, because they weren't around to know what drum corps was like before. Again, it's their game now, both on AND off the field."

Bob,
If you remember correctly it wasn't all corps that were angry with the VFW and AL back then, it was mainly the Combine corp followed by a few others that started DCI. Many others went along with them our of fear that they wouldn't be able to get those corps at their shows if they didn't go along with them. It wasn't one big happy family if majority support of DCI. And you supposition that all are happy with the current situation is based on your opinion rather than fact. I can't imagine what Jim Jones from the Troopers or Bill Howard of Madison would have thought of today's version of DCI were they alive to see it.

The rest of your argument, I could debate many of the points, but what IS the point? We will just have to see how all of this plays out over the course of the next couple of years.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I agree with Jerry .. we will have to wait and see how this all plays out!

But, Bob is right .. the "kids" involved ARE different. They are no longer the young, neighborhood kids who need a youth activity. They are college age people, usyually experienced musicians, looking for an short term commitment for experience.

And, there are (virtually) NO parents groups or formal involvement and direction. The corps of "Boards of Directors", Foundations" for support and many (hopefully) volunteers.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

The average age of a corps member is 19.4, according to DCU.

re: FUEL costs ..

This was recently included in a story on the Cavaliers website about the issue:

"If things don't settle down we all might have to start considering more regional touring for the better part of the summer."

Of course, they also appealed to their fans to send donations to help get the Cavaliers to San Antonio and a bunch of other faraway places that they will visit.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Call me a grinch if you wish, but I ask a simple question. Why should the fans be asked to support unnecessary tours into areas (San Antonio, Dallas, etc) where very few if any drum corps are serviced or even exist?

When considering the excessive amount of fees charged for a young adult to merely try out for that particular corps, as well as the amount of dues accessed for belonging to these units, why should the public be charged more for tickets or asked to contribute even more for gas? To help pay for DCI's delusions of grandeur at the expense of the corps and the fans? Maybe it is time for DCI to take a real hard look at their schedule and the fiscal reality of soaring costs to all of the member units for fuel spent fulfilling DCI's unreasonable and unjustifiable tour schedule . Maybe that quote from Cavies website should be heavily considered and they should go regional with their competitions and travel, which was once the common practice of that and other units. They managed to survive and flourish that way in earlier years, maybe they need to learn how to do it again.

When going to the DCI website and the scores section, I find it hard to understand their justification for many of the travel or tour events considering the very small amount of corps that participate in so many of the scheduled events. I looked at all of the contests so far, and the vast majority of them feature no more than 4 DCI member corps, some with less, and I haven't seen more than 2 or 3 contests that had more than 4 finalist quality corps. The rest of the show was filled our by lower end "world class" corps, division 2, division 3 or senior corps, which get little in the way of financial support for participating and filling out the contest slate, unless of course they are finalist corps. I saw one show on their list that had only 4 corps total in the show with only the Boston Crusaders in attendance from DCI, the other three were lesser division units. How can people continue to support or even consider attending shows where you get so little return for your hard earned dollars? 4 corps for what was probably a $15-20 dollar ticket? That's about 40 minutes of entertainment for the price of your ticket.

I know this can and will be considered negative by some of you, but I would really rather support and/or send money to the lower division corps. You know, the ones who are REALLY fighting for survival and more closely represent what drum corps was and still should be, quality youth activities. If DCI cannot see the wisdom of regionalizing their shows and limiting their touring in a time of financial crisis, then let them foot the bill and give the corps more in the way of financial aid from their bank account, or let them finally reexamine their touring policies and schedules.

Sorry for this post which will come off as negative toward DCI, but maybe it's time for the corps to put the blame where it originates, and demand a change in policies concerning travel and touring, at the point of origin is DCI itself.

I apologize to anyone who might be offended by this post.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

LOOK MOTHER, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Jerry, I can't read all of that. Can't you summarize it or print an abstract.









...and DCI goes to Texas because there's alot of Texans in DCI corps. That's all I read, sorry.

You could only have community (neighborhood; e.g. Imperials) drum corps if nobody kept score. No judges, no winners... just play. Once the score keeping starts, the recruiting of corps members starts, and then, you're right back to where we are today... recruit world wide and try to "win it all" at DCI finals. With community corps score keeping, it would evolve right back to this state of affairs, eventually. Vicious circle.

Residency rules for drum corps? DCI policing this, as the IHSA tries to police it in high school sports? Yikes! But then, what about the Catholic drum corps, etc.! Look at h.s. and college sports... how is DCI today much different? Recruit, recruit... including adult staff members. That's how it is. I still enjoy watching the product.

Where is Anderson hiding, re all of this, and regarding Dave's new post re the future of DCI? I always like to read his comments... among the rest of us, too. John...?

Jerry makes me look progressive...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bill,

I've been pretty busy since the beginning of May. Just returned from a eight day business trip to a project site in Indonesia (a couple of islands east of Bali) and then Singapore and have a trip scheduled to our Panama Canal Project in August or maybe September. In April I was also appointed chair of the American Society of Civil Engineers Committee on levees--the recent problems in the midwest actually are worse than New Orleans.

Some quick comments (which are probably repeats from previous postings).

I didn't even have time this past weekend to catch the Blue Devils and others at Leland Stanford Junior University. I'd say that DCI and DCA will continue to be an esoteric activity as it has always has been--even those of us who marched in the 60s were participating in a very esoteric activity. It's geared for kids who are musicians--primarily freshmen and sophmore's in college. DCI is summer college band (it's not much different than a college baseball player participating in a semi-pro league during the summer). With the change to B-flat horns the corps are brass bands like Ohio State (the best drum and bugle corps in the country).

I do think that some of the financially strapped less competitive DCI Division I Corps may have some tough times with the fuel cost this summer. Programs like the Blue Devils and Cavaliers will do fine they seem to have sound financial backing.

The corps have tours than go to Texas, Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi because jsut like college football, marching bands are a "big deal" in those states.

Take Care.

John

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Just said the truth that most people like to avoid thinking or talking openly about. You can take it or leave it. It's just meant to be food for thought.

Jim, I think you can handle 4 paragraphs. And sending the corps at great expense and in a fuel crisis to Texas because there are a lot of Texans in the corps, may seem like reasonable to you, but isn't fiscally responsible or a good enough reason in this type of financial climate. Just my opinion. Maybe if they regionalized a bit more, they would get more kids from their home states. It's not like there's a shortage of good musicians at the universities in their states.

We have to be able to see the forest from the trees in this type of discussion. I am talking about the big picture and DCI, not the shows/productions or the corps. I agree with Bob about today's shows. I don't particularly care for the productions, but the kids play amazingly well. It is their activity to go wherever creatively they choose to go. The future of drum corps as an activity for average kids is what I was talking about and my major concern, although some failed to see that or chose interpret my posts incorrectly and take a defensive posture for DCI. I respect all of your opinions and your right to voice them. Please allow me the same respect and opportunity to voice mine. Like Dave said and I agree totally with his assessment, "DCI will founder from it's own weight and greed." Nuf said on the subject. We'll see how it all plays out.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

You're preaching to the choir, Jerry. We all would like to see drum corps become the neighborhood activity it used to be, but those days are gone. It's big business now. It reflects what America has become, thus making things such as fuel costs (original topic) a budgetary concern that can be solved through fiscal means. And John, it ain't marching band, not even close. The differences are as obvious as they always been.

Jim is right .. the "old days" of community drum corps ARE gone. BUT .. I would NOT be surprised to see a return start to happen. Wishful thinking?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Dave,

I think you just hit the nail on the head. Drum corps NEEDS for there to be a "restarted" movement, much like the DCM model, that is detached from DCI, or whatever follows DCI after they fail.

Jim,
Nowhere in any of my messages did I use the term "community drum corps", others used that term. I was writing about small corps in general. You keep missing the point. They do have a right to exist unimpeded by DCI's need to control them. Society has changed too much for there ever to be a return to the "neighborhood" corps that once flourished. But time is ripe for new organizations to sprout up that are not under the sphere of influence of DCI. They will be different, but their viability as an activity for the "average" kid would be similar to what we once knew in the small corps that once were in great abundance around the country. How could that not be an option or possibility? You march in a small corps and they manage to survive. Why wouldn't it be possible for new, smaller junior units to start up again and become active under their own leadership and sponsoring their own unique shows? That's what we are talking about here, the big picture, not just drum corps as DCI sees it.

Just because DCI chooses to consider drum corps to be big business does not mean that new small units could not form, organize and perform independently from them, with their own regional associations to govern them. There is already a movement and plans for a winter small corps circuit led by Chris Ferarra, as one example of a restart movement. These units possibly could all morph into some "new" form of the activity, so that "average" kids have affordable opportunities to experience and grow from. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility here.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Just noticed that most DCI corps seem to have a "Fuel Fund" donation plan ... listed on their websites and announced at shows.

Pretty soon they'll have a "fuel surcharge" added to the cost op contest tickets!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

And those entering the stadium will have to pay for all baggage brought into the stadium too.