An interesting thought .. VFW and Legion Nationals witrh "surprising" outcomes.

Jerry posted this:

"Just like DCI, VFW had a history of questionable outcomes on the national level."
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One thing that you have to remember is that both of these groups had an appointed National COntest Director. Tony Schelta was the VFW Chairman for YEARS! AND, he had his favorite judges to be used (some might use the word "cronies" )
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Note: DCI tries to make the VFW and Legion into the "bad guys" who were "against" drum corps, hence they HAD to form DCI.

While both had their own rules (some of which were restrictive and some were just strange to us .."cadence" rules?) .... both groups duid drum corps a lot of good. They sponsored corps. They provided regional and national contests with uniform rules. It wasn't really that bad!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

As I understand Don Warren, a whole lot of it had to do with the corps (plural) not getting enough of the take ($) at the gate.

He may be right on that, but they had prize money that was equal or maybe a bit better for the lower corps than DCI provides when considering inflation. Also, it didn't cost $75-100 to get tickets for VFW or American Legion. I think I paid $5,00 to sit on the 45 yard line at 68 VFW in Detroit. And the winner, if I remember correctly took home $2000.00 and 12th was about $500. When figuring inflation that's about $10,000 for first and about $2500,00 for last. Not that bad for the economy in the 60s.

I think he was being polite and making excuses for the real reason. The combine wanted to control drum corps and the direction it was to take. It some ways, at first, it was good. But it obviously got out of hand quickly. Lots of corps took the deep 6 in the 70s and early 80s because of DCI (recruiting) and their touring. The B and C corps should have just stayed with the small circuits until they were ready to really battle the big boys. They also should have stood up to DCI when DCI threatened and drove the other circuits out of existence. Small corps still had a chance when DCM still existed. DCI put an end to DCM when they could no longer fill a show with their own corps. That was the last straw in my eyes. But this should be on another thread. Sorry for the rant. I just miss those small circuits where kids still had fun and had a reasonable amount of time and shows to train in. Still bothers me.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I don't think anyone around at the time doubted the huge impact VFW and AL had on drum corps - we wouldn't have existed without them. And they could have continued to have the drum corps, if they had just listened to the corps' requests for rules changes. But they became more dictatorial as the years went by, and the corps wanted to grow. They basically committed suicide by not listening. And the money was awful. At most shows, only the top three or four corps won anything at all, and that was usually enough to maybe pay their expenses (not sure where Jerry got his numbers). The corps finally figured out that THEY were the attraction, and after giving the veterans groups MANY chances, they finally gave up and went solo.

That being said, the mistake DCI made was in convincing ALL corps - even the smaller ones who know they would probably never make finals - to follow and leave the veterans groups. We could have had BOTH, and everyone would have been happy.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, MOST shows had nothing to do with the veterans groups. They just had state and national championship sjhowes. And, Jerry is right (adjusted for inflation) the prize money at these shows was good.

But, most shows were locally run .. and they were driven out by DCI.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Jerry:

Was it VFW or American Legion where we got to do the parade (at night) over and over and over again? And we got paid every time, so we kept getting bused to the starting line and marched the parade again.

Was it 1980 or 1981? I can't remember the year, I just remember marching the same parade down Michigan Ave over and over and over and over again. I think we did 6 times?

Do you remember?

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 - 1983

Jim,
I think it was 81 and it was in Chicago. Think it was AL but I might be wrong. I only remember marching it a couple of times, but we might have done it 3 times.

I do believe that was the year we won both VFW and AL state championships. No Cavies, Phantom or Gmen, but we did win it. They count no matter who shows up. Wasn't that also the year we toured to Montreal for prelims and did DCI North in Ypsilanti?

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

BTW, I got the prize structure (68) from a Drum corps news article on VFW for that year. I have a bunch of magazines and periodicals going back to about 65. Most shows didn't pay much, but they didn't charge much either to get in. All had prize structures of some sort though. Not enough to get rich by, but enough to help pay the bus bills.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Bob, why did VFW and AL have to change the rules? It was their shows and their sponsorships. They were the ones that gave a lot of support to Drum Corp when no one else even knew what it was.
The corps could grow and still be involved with the VFW, or as they did, create DCI. I remember Dallas was on Astro Turf and they didn't want the Timpanis put down on it, so they didn't put them down.
Even in the old days we had to adjust our shows based on where it was held, if their were prelims with a shorter show, inspections and even the judges that were going to be there. So don't say it was their own fault for not changing the rules to fit the coprs. If DCI hadn't wanted to run the whole Drum Corp world and act like spoiled brats taking their ball and starting a new game, there still would be more than one so called champion.

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major and Baritone

Well, I agree with Steve on this one. The VFW and Legion did an awful lot FOR drum corps over the years. AND, they didn't keep corps out of their championships after DCI started! Most DCI corps just stayed away.

But, DCI wanted to run EVERYTHING!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Drum corps was relatively unknown till DCI came along.

I cannot get over the number of long time friends that I have who are, like me, drum corps junkies, for years, from before DCI, and from '72 on... both types of junkies. One of us will mention drum corps, in passing, and the other of us says, "You like drum corps? So do I!" And then, hours of discussion follow, both of us surprised that we didn't know that about each other, "all these years." Funny.

DCI surely has marketed its product; I'll say that much for em.

It will be unknown again if costs keep going up. Or maybe it will revert back to a youth organization in smaller areas where people can afford to go see a show.

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major and Baritone

I doubt it will ever revert back, and that's the problem. If economics DO have an impact, they have nothing to fall back on.

I agree with BOTH sides. I do think the VFW and AL were stubborn, and unwilling to even compromise artistically, let alone bend. I think the corps would have met them in the middle, if they would have moved at all. And that might have saved the little corps that have died because of DCI taking over everything. NEITHER extreme is good, although nobody in DCI would ever agree to that.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

As for prices of tickets, you can get a ticket to a show for $10, sometimes, and the seats aren't bad. Other times $15. That's not a bad price for tickets.

As for the little corps, DCI does provide what was called, til this year, Division III, with their own competition. Now it's called Open Class. I think they combined Div. II and Div. III this year and call it Open Class. So, it seems to me, the little corps do get to compete with each other without the World Class (used to be called Div. I) getting in their way.

Am I missing something re these two topics?