What happened to the Imperials between these two seasons? I just listened to the two shows back-to-back, and there's NO comparison. The 66 corps is VASTLY superior to 65. The arrangements are better, both the horn and drum lines are WAY above the previous year. Even the tuning of the drums is completely different, and I don't think they got new drums that year (when did they get the second set of Ludwigs, white pearl with the maroon in the middle with black piping, that we used through 72?).

You'd never guess it was the same organization if you didn't know better.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Difficult to answer this cuz I left after 65.

Wait, maybe that's the reason!

Actually, I thought we were pretty good in 65, but that was after the 64 disaster.

So, 66 musta been fabulous.

Larry

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Since I marched in both of those years, I'll give you my view.

The story actually goes back to the end of 1963 when a lot of long time members aged out or left. So in 1964 the corps was relatively young. The 1964 drum line was pretty much a group of kids who'd come up from the Cadets at the end of the 1962 season and were probably about 15 and 16 years old. I think there were only two first sopranos in 1964 who'd played first soprano in the 1963 corps and one of them was 15 years old (Blomquist). So 1964 was a rebuilding year with Brian Pennington coming in as brass instructor in March 1964--Brian brought his brother and I believe Roger Avise from Aurora and John McAleer joined from St Alexis (three first sopranos). That 1964 corps was competitive and the only set back was not making VFW finals in Cleveland.

In 1965 the corps was stronger and more experienced but the music was written to result in a "clean" show. Not a lot of solos. My recollection is we'd have high brass execution scores but lower GE. But the combination in 1965 resulted in the most successful season I can remember. The corps won 6 contests and placed 1st or 2nd in half of the contests we entered. The Midwest Dream recording is one of the best I have of the corps--we lost to the Cavaliers by 0.5 with a drum judge who was a recent (1964) Cavalier alumni and about a half a dozen brass execution mistakes that usually didn't happen. I also think that Ted Orland might have been the only person to age out after the 1965 season. (Ted is the only person ever promoted from drum major to first baritione--was drum major in 1963 and became a first baritone in 1964).

In 1966 we had a more experienced brass and drum line and the arrangements reflect that. We hadn't lost many kids from 1965 and added a couple of experienced kids from other corps (including a Cavalier). There were solos, duets, trios and quartets in almost every song but Dancero. We also had people playing second soprano and baritone who were good enough to play the first soprano and baritone parts. So that 1966 corps was more talented than 1965 primarily because the kids had matured as musicians. I'd say the same for the drumline. Minor, Wigman, Maggio, Tomaszek,et al were a lot more talented at 17 or 18 than they were at 15 or 16 in 1964. The 1966 corps won seven contests and the Cavaliers were the only midwestern corps we didn't defeat. The Illinois Top 4 recording is probably of the 1966 corps.

In both of those years we went in to VFW Nationals with great expectations. In 1965 we were dumped by the two brass judges (Schlecta told Rick Maass "our boys needed to be nicer to Don Angelica" and one of the judges later admitted to Rick, after hearing a recording, that he had been influenced by others.) In 1966 there were some performance problems due to the acoustics in old Roosevelt Stadium and there still might have been some Don Angelica influence on the judges--even in the old system there was as much personal bias as we talk about in DCI.

Anyway, the 1965 and 1966 corps were the strongest Norwood units I marched in during my time in the Imperials. I also don't recollect that Norwood won as many contests during previous seasons as we did in each of those years.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Bob,

Which 1965 recording were you listening to in your comparison? The recording on the Norwood CDs that Keith Normandin and I put together a couple of years ago has the 1965 Midewest Dream. The CD also has the 1966 Illinois Top 4 recording and a 1964 Midwest Dream recording. In my view the bigger change is from 1964 to 1965. When Brian Pennington took over in March 1964 he modified some of the older Ed Reimer arrangements and we only completely changed two songs. "More" was played out of concert and into the circle/sunburst formation and about half way through the season we changed the song we played out of the circle to the hymn, "Beautiful Savior." The later isn't on any recording I've come across.

"More" is radically different than anything of the other songs we played in 1964. It's a short number, less than a minute and sounds like something Blessed Sacrament played in the early 1960s. It actually sounds like a completely different corps than the rest of the show. "Dancero" in 1966 (out of concert) is another number written in the style of a song called "Por Favor" that Sac played from 1959 to 1961. I lobbied Brian to write an arrangement of "Por Favor" but wasn't unhappy with "Dancero" that was a Norwood song in 1960 and 1961 and one I never got a chance to play as I moved up from the Cadets after the 1961 season. I'm told that Sal Ferrara hated "Dancero" because it sounded too much like Blessed Sacrament. Sac was the one corps the Cavaliers had the most difficulty with on the National level in the late 50s and early 60s.

Another comment on the 1966 arrangements--the opener, "On a Wonderful Day Like Today," and "Who Can I Turn To When Nobody Needs Me" are versions of arrangements from a 1965 Sammy Davis Album with various Broadway Show tunes. "Dancero" is based on an arrangement on a Doris Day album called, "Latin For Lovers." The 1966 concert was arranged by Bill Hayes who was Blessed Sacrament's arranger in the mid-50s through 1961. The second song in concert "I May Be Wrong" is very similar to Sac's 1959 concert "You're Driving Me Crazy."

Also, the second number in the 1965 concert, "My Baby Just Cares for Me," is a variation of another Bill Hayes arrangement for the Liberty Bell Cadets. In 1965, the brass judge in one of the New Jersy shows we were in (we went to New Jersey and New York after the Chicago VFW Nationals) had played Bill Blomquist's solo about when he marched with the Liberty Bell Cadets in the mid-50s.

Probably too much information, but 1964 through 1966 were the years I recollect the most from my time in the Imperials.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

NEVER too much information.

I'm assuming it was the Dream recording from 1965. It's not that I didn't like that show - there just seems to be a huge different the next year. And it was probably because it was the same corps with another year of experience, which made a larger difference in those days, because we weren't trained musicians.

Or maybe it WAS because Larry left...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

That improvement happened with a lot of corps. During my early years in Norwood the Skokie Vanguard was always a corps that we beat. In 1964 they started using Hy Dreitzer arrangements (New York Skyliners). In 1965 they made as big a jump as we did from their 1964 corps. They probably had an even bigger improvement than us because they'd been mediocre for a long time.

I will admit that the 1965 music isn't that interesting--not a lot of flashy solos. But the brass was very clean. The idea was to limit exposure. We went into the season with music that wouldn't have to be adjusted (simplified) to improve the score. Whereas corps like the Kilties modified their arrangements as the season progressed. In 1965 the Kilties never beat us until VFW Nationals. They finished 3rd at VFW Nationals.

The 1966 Royal Airs were a classic example of this. Norwood and the Vanguard were consistently beating them in the early part of the season. But if you listen to the 1966 VFW Nationals performance you'll hear a soprano soloist playing for about half their concert ("What Kind of Fool Goes to Paris in April"). I think they finished in the top 5 at VFW in 1966. Without those changes, they might have been much much lower.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Bob,

If the recording is from 1965 Midwest Dream the opening is "You Go To My Head". Sometime after the Midwest Dream we changed to "Poor Butterfly." So the VFW Nationals recording and a recording from American Legion State have "Poor Butterfly" as the entry number.

Actually the opening of the 1965 Norwood show was another portion modeled after Blessed Sacrament. Their great corps of 1960 started with "Spellbound"--similar sounding song to ours. They marched off the line a few steps and then stopped and played the entry just as we did. After finishing the entry they went into National Emblem and we played Semper Fi (both Sousa marches).

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

John is correct about the changes from 1965 to 1966. The corps members DID mature and gain experience.

BTW .. Brian Pennington loved the Blessed Sacrament style (Bil Hayes) and tried to model his writing after them. (Not a bad model! )

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63