We all try to understand the reasons for the Imperials not staying together and the reason we didn't grow into a larger and more competitive corp. Especially when only the Cavies and Imperials were the surviving large corps in the Chicago area. If you look at the list of managers, no one stayed in that position more than 1 or 2 years. I think that might have a some bearing on this subject.

I know from the restaurant business and having young people working for me, if the management keeps changing, the kids start to think that management doesn't care so why should I.

Some of you are older than me and some are younger. What did you guys see or feel about the constant change in management?

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major and Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 66-72

Steve, we have discussed this topic before. Search the Forum for threads titled "competitive status" and "management". The subject is also discussed in the Corps History on the public website.

You are correct though ... the corps inability to develop a strong, ongoing management of capable and fully supported managers was a serious failing.

The Corps never developed a really viable support group (Booster group) including corps alumni and others. It was almost as though the parents didn't want to "lose control". So, funding was ALWAYS a major issue.

Yes, there were a lot of parents and other volunteers who helped at various times, but the corps needed more stability and ongoing knowledge in the management. l

What did you do in the Corps? drummer: later: Quartermaster, assistant drum instructor

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

To add to Dave's comment's I will say that in the late 50s through the time I left the corps after the 1966 season. The Norwood organizaton was a good representation of the community corps concept with perhaps the 1965 and 1966 corps being the zenith. Those two years only Pennington (brass instructor) and Pawlowski (guard instructor) were not alumni of the corps. We had managers who were alumni (Maass and Tessitore) a quartermaster (Dave Borck) and a lot of alumni from the late 50s through early 60s who assisted with instruction. Parents group was strong and the members of the board of directors were long term Norwood Parents (Minor, Spryzak, Lesk, Borck, Anderson, Grana, Wills, etc.). In addition the board included Mr Richleffs who was a corps President in the 1950s. Rick Maass' leadership and direction of the corps operation was also likely unique.

I wasn't around after 1966 but it seems to me that Norwood functioned this way through maybe around 1970--pretty much community based organization and fielded a competitive corps. That model didn't fit with the growth of the activity after about 1970. Lasted a bit longer than other organizations but didn't change to fit the new order of things.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 1959 thru 1961 Cadets 1962 thru 1966 Imperials

I wasn't part of the forum back in 05, so I just read what you said back then. It seems that the reason the managers kept changing was that they just got tired of dealing with the parents. And the parents wanted a Boy Scout troop that played music and kept their kids busy during the summer. Now I know the real reason my father got out of it. But he sure loved the time he was doing it.

What did you do in the Corps? Drum Major and Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 66-72

I admire all of those individuals who managed the corps through the years. I would have to say that the biggest problem was lack of money - for instruction, equipment, travel, whatever. But it all starts with instruction. If you can't afford top talent, you don't get top shows. Without a top show, you aren't competitive. If you aren't competitive, you lose your more talented, older members. And the cycle continues. But I think at some point we hit a middle ground (77-81 maybe), where we understood our "niche" and strove to be the "Best of the Rest", and we were all fine with that. But the activity itself made it impossible to survive for long that way, unfortunately.

I know the managers I had in my time with Norwood - Buddy Grana (Cadets and Imperials), Jim Fiduccia - and the others working with them really cared about the corps and did everything they could to give us the best chances for success, both competitively and, maybe more importantly, in the experience that we all had. And the fact that so many of us are out here, sharing those experiences after all these years, says lots about their success.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

I think it can be safely said that Bob is correct when he narrowed a good deal of the problems down to money. That was almost a universal problem with all corps back then. Also, the competitive climate changed dramatically from the early 70s to the late 70s/early 80s. Drum corps really started to become more of a touring activity during those years, which many of the non_DCI units were financially incapable of doing, although there still were local shows for the non-DCI units. That however would change in the years that followed. Many small community shows ceased to continue operating because they couldn't get the "top" corps to draw in a crowd large enough to cover their operating costs. Those corps were all off on a tour of the South or out West in areas that really didn't have many drum corps. It was DCI's failed experiment to stimulate growth in the activity by taking shows into those areas. All that experiment managed to do was indirectly or directly help destroy the existing shows that were in the areas that had actively supported the activity in the past.

It was also the time that ushered in the era of "mercenary" or high priced instructors. There were (and still are) many of the "top" instructors or designers who just expected excessive salaries for their services. The smaller the corps, the more it would cost to retain these peoples services, and because of their reputations could get it. Because it cost so much money for the designers or main instructors who were only present infrequently, the corps didn't have enough money left for to retain quality technicians that had always been the mainstay of a quality program, if they could be found at all. Those that didn't charge an arm and a leg for their services had trouble getting enough money from organizations (because they didn't have it) to cover their costs or make it worth their time and energy. It became a vicious cycle that forced many technicians to seek work with groups that could pay or with bands.

Money was a major issue when it came to instrumentation. Because of the out of control inflation rate during the Jimmy Carter years during the 70s, the price of producing and/or purchasing a new drums or bugles skyrocketed. As instruments wore out from years of use, or they became deficient or obsolete etc, they had to be replaced. We did our best to replace as many instruments as possible. It did however take time to do so because we, and many other organizations, were always short on funds to purchase the much needed equipment. It was always a matter of one or two horns at a time. This piece meal approach led to a feeling by some of the members of being left out, if they were not one of the members who received the newer instruments. They felt disenfranchised and some left to go to a corps where they could get a newer instrument. It was all part of a downward vicious cycle for many units who faced the similar issues or problems. The lack of adequate funding in so many areas forced the corps managers or directors to take on even more assignments, tasks and responsibilities associated with the job. This led to severe frustration and burnout for many in the activity who were very dedicated and worked very hard to put out competitive units.

I don't think I have the space here to go further and address how the costs of traveling, because of gas prices, vehicle maintenance and transportation costs negatively affected the activity. That will be the subject for another time.

Bob is correct though in his conclusions. For Imperials and almost all of the drum corps in the activity, the lack of sufficient funding and support were the main issues leading to their demise.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I will try to keep this as short as possible since it is a subject with which I lived for four years as A Corps manager.
Some of the points covered by all of you will be covered more comprehensively in a revised history of the 70's.

On the subject of money, it was the single most destructive issue to Norwood, and most smaller corps, in the 70's.

The point concerning the Booster Club, is certainly true, but the fund raising efforts were adequate, though not spectacular. The thing that was necessary was a major donor as has been pointed out in previous threads. Jim Kennedy and John Gillan made concerted efforts to locate such a sponsor to no avail.

John, I would point out that in the late 70's, in an effort to keep with the times, the by-laws were changed in a attempt to modernize the organization. It turned out to be to litte and to late.

Jerry, you are right about everything changing after the advent of DCI. However, I still think that we could, and would, have withstood that problem. The major problem of losing members to them was not their raids, though they no doubt had an effect, but a major mistake in judgement by the small corps. The mistake was allowing us to become part of their world by becoming part of DCM. The strange part is that most small corps management realized the problem and did it anyway. It was a clever move on their part in that it allowed them to stay close to the area during the non-tour portions of the season. The detriments for the small corps were as follows;
1. Each corps was obligated to run a show through
DCM. This resulted in the demise of show
promoters such as Musical Units, IDBCA, Parade
Specialists, etc. as viable options.

2. DCM picked the corps for the shows which meant
in most instances, a small corps would take
the field, that with 2 or 3 DCI corps
in the contest, they would finish third or
fourth at best.

The factors as noted above resulted in removing the flexibility of scheduling that was so vital to, as Bob so aptly stated "to be the best of the rest", the continued existence of the smaller corps. I think the proof is that in 1980, some 15 members of the Imperials of 1979 were marching with no less than 5 DCI corps. There is no doubt many other factors contributed to the eventual demise of Norwood, but basically DCM's rules removed the ability to rebuild as had been done in the past.

As a footnote Steve, I would point out that there were, by this time, four DCI corps within close enough proximity for our members to join, and they did. I can't blame them, considering their time and effort, for wanting to be the best of the best. The sad part is that some came back in the 80's, but it was to late and they were to few.

What did you do in the Corps? Chaparone + much more

Sorry, that last post should have read from Jim Fiduccia not Diane. I don't want her to take the blame for my opinions.

What did you do in the Corps? Corps Manager 1976-79

Jim,

I agree that the early DCM experience had much to do with exposing many corps to financial ruin and exposing the kids to shows that they couldn't possibly be competitive in, AND made it easier for the top corps to recruit. DCM also put Badgerland Association and the Illinois Association out of business while DCI handled the VFW and American Legion and without the DCI corps aside from Cavies, Kilts and Argonne participating, which damaged those great shows that were eventually cancelled due to lack of corps attending them.

It is ironic indeed that in the end, DCI ended up barring their corps from participating in DCM, which took them out. It was a classic case of DCI eliminating the competition when it came to independent associations, with DCM as a collaborator.

Something that also led to the easier recruitment in years around 1973-1975 (approx.) was the elimination of the "release agreement" between the corps and associations. Remember when after a certain date a kid could only jump to another corps if they got a release signed by the management of the corps they were leaving? After that was gone there were no protections left for the community/smaller units.

Good point on DCM Jim. I had forgotten how much of an impact that had.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Wow. The lessons I've learned here this past year or so have put to rest much consternation I felt over many years after leaving the Imperials.

The year I left, I remember seeing the talent drain to DCI and the drop in numbers as a result. That's what I saw, as a 18-year-old with zero insight into the realities of corps management.

In retrospect, I'd say I'm a very good example of the transition from the era of locally-based corps to the DCI-dominated era. In the beginning, when I first found drum corps, it was a place for me to learn to drum (which I always wanted to do) and provided me a source of positive, meaningful activity during the summers. It really did keep me off the streets.

As I grew older, I got a glimpse of the possibilities we had as a competitive unit, and I really wanted to be able to compete with the DCI-class corps, because that’s where I saw the true excellence. As time marched on, some of us became uneasy with the dearth of facility, and then some of us left, leaving those left behind with what seemed to me to be an impossible situation. At 18 and struggling to find one's way in life, I chose to leave.

Frankly, back then I was quite depressed about the whole situation. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most people who knew me then think I left corps for the wrong reasons. The reason I left was I saw no chance of the corps competing at the level I wanted to be. I remember coming back to a couple practices the year after I left, and I couldn’t even stick around for the duration of the practice because I was so frustrated.

There was definitely active DCI recruiting. I considered it a point of pride that I never went to a DCI corps, though, because I personally wanted so much for OUR corps. I wanted to build it but back then didn’t have a clue. Over the years I have come to look back at the whole time as a very positive thing, even though things didn’t go as I wanted them to. Never before or after have I felt such camaraderie as I felt with that group of people.

The bulk of posts and institutional knowledge on this forum seems to be coming from people who either were what I’ll classify as second generation corps, or from the era when drum corps was locally based, or who were and/or are involved in management at various times, or who simply stayed with drum corps through the years and gained insight through exposed contact. I’ve read posts that went on and on, that at first seemed like random rants, and the resulting discourse that slowly has come together in my mind to form a much better understanding of all the dynamics that have evolved drum corps into what it is today. In fact, there’s probably enough information floating around on this forum alone to do a Ph.D-level study in management – or something.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I will ALWAYS - ALWAYS - be grateful for the people running the Imperials, who were there for us. The Imperials provided me with a place to go to stay away from the toxic neighborhood that I grew up in. I'm certain that, without those dedicated people who kept the Imperials going, my life and perspective on life would be far different than it is today. And since I’m generally happy with my life, I’d say that’s a very good thing indeed. Thanks again.

- Z -

What did you do in the Corps? Snare

What years were you a Corps member? 70's

Mike,

That was a GREAT post! THAT is exactly why so many people gave of themselves and worked so hard for the corps. Like Bob said, that is NOT what is happening with drum corps today. Which is truly a major loss to the youth in our society. If there was a flourishing drum corps activity today, there would be less kids getting into trouble and more kids learning how to show respect to everyone and everything they come in contact with. The most important things we learned in drum corps was to have dignity, show respect and learn how to work with others.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I think a big difference in the 70's was the change in many shows that instead of prize money, many of the contest organizers went to predetermined guarantees which took the pressure off by allowing the corps to know in advance if the money was financily feasible. I don't know if this was the case in the bigger shows, but whenever possible we tried for shows with the guarantied monies.

What years were you a Corps member? A Corps manager 76-79

Jim,

It was the case in bigger shows. The bigger the show, the bigger the guarantee. Also came down to a case of certain corps, because of their perceived popularity, connections with DCI, or level of skill got the biggest checks. It got worse as time went on and it turned out to be a case of the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. Corps like Santa Clara, Blue Devils, Madison and a few others were getting the top money, with negotiations taking place between sponsors and corps directors. The mid level DCI corps like Cavies, Kilts, Trooper, etc got less money, but still a lot better than the rest. Lower level corps were getting a mere pittance compared with the perceived top groups.

That situation had a negative affect on many things. 1.) It started to get real real expensive to run a show and with the sponsors having to decide whether they could actually afford to run a show, many shows were cancelled. 2.) The top corps because of their top level revenue could afford to pay the top level instructors and creative type people more money than mid level or lower level corps, which drew away instructors and writers from the corps they started with to the corps where the money was. This created a competitive imbalance. 3.) The corps that could demand the big pay day started having enough money to buy all the newest instruments being developed. When the mid and lower corps tried to keep up, many corps over-extended themselves financially and thus started the spiral toward financial doom. Many corps at that time, because of the financial problems started to fail and close their doors.

Actually, this topic could be discussed at great length and produced the have and the have nots in drum corps. So many variations on a theme in that area led to even greater financial strife as DCI established a financial structure for their corps in term of how much each corps received for their participation in shows, and it increased whenever DCI felt their corps need more money.

We can trace these "special" financial agreements back to the very early 70s and the combine which ended up being DCI, and possibly even much farther back. I remember Kilts going to World Open in 72 because there was open warfare between Drum Corps News Shows and DCI. DCI was boycotting the show, so World Open paid a big bucks guarantee to get Kilts and Des Plaines Vanguard to bring in a crowd. We (Kilts) went about 5 Drum Corps News shows that year because the management of our corps and the Vanguard signed exclusive contracts with that organization. That's the reason Kilts were not on the 1972 DCI albums. They had an exclusive contract with DCN and Fleetwood for recordings. The money gained from those agreements helped Kilts get out of the red financially, but they paid a heavy price from DCI in the following years by being given a lower level pay structure and being sent to the shows in BFE. DCI was very vindictive in those days.

I know this went long, but I want to address Jim's question. Hope that makes things a bit clearer Jim.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager