ANOTHER POST BROUGHT ME TO THIS QUESTION:

"WHAT IF" THE IMPERIALS ORGANIZATION HAD ACTUALLY FORMED A BOOSTER GROUP AND DEVELOPED SPONSOR SUPPORT SUCH THAT THEY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE 1980S? AND EVEN HAVE BECOME A MAJOR DCI CORPS?

COULD THE CORPS HAVE RECRUITED ENOUGH LOCAL (COMMUNITY) MEMBERS TO SURVIVE IN THE NEW DCI WORLD?

OR, WOULD THEY HAVE TO RECRUIT MEMBERS FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY? THIS IS WHAT THE CAVALIERS AND PHANTOM REGIMENT HAD TO DO TO SURVIVE. IS THIS WHAT THE IMPERIALS ALUMNI AND SUPPORTERS WOULD DO? IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH THE VALUES AND GOALS ..STATED AS COMMUNITY VALUES ... OF THE CORPS?

IF WE HAD SURVIVED INTO THE DCI "ERA" WOULD WE REALLY WANT TO DO THIS? WOULD WE STILL BE "THE IMPERIALS"?

WHAT ARE "THE IMPERIALS"?

COMMENTS?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer: later: Quartermaster, assistant drum instructor

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

The "what if" also needs an individual like Don Warren or Jerry Seawright of the Blue Devils. Leader managers (probably Seawright is best examples) who were well established businessmen in the community that had credibility with sponsors and ability to convince them it was a good idea. Also needed to have skill to hire a director and staff who could develop a winner. If you are a champion it's easier to attact sponsors.

If that had happened the Imperials would be like the Cavaliers of today and we'd all be like the present day Cavalier alumni. It would not be a neighborhood corps. We'd all be proud alumni (especially if they won a few DCI championships) even though the activity changed.

It didn't happen and probably never had a chance to happen. The Cavaliers had a winning tradition for years prior to DCI. Same is true to varying degrees for the Cadets. Madison and the Troopers were from smaller cities and had traditions of winning but not to the extent of the Cavaliers and Cadets.

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 through 1961 Imperials 1962 through 1966

John echos my sentiment. It wasn't going to happen without the management and leadership. (Those terms are not synonymous.)

One thing I'd like to clarify - I'm proud to have been a part of the Imperials anyway. In fact, I don't feel like anything's missing from those years. Maybe I even learned more by not being on top all of the time. The few shows we won were extra fun, but we were never losers.

I think those that were winning all of the time missed quite a bit of real life. They became complacent and assumed they would always be on top. When that happens, the ultimate downfall is very hard to take.

I'm quite happy with what we did and who we were. Maybe not famous, but so what?

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

I AGREE WITH LARRY AND JOHN. CERTAINLY WE LACKED THE TYPE OF ONGOING AND CONTINUOUS LEADERSHIP WHICH JOHN MENTIONED.

BUT, EVEN EXCELLENT LEADERSHIP HAS TO FOLLOW THE VALUES SET BY THE ORGANIZATION. OUR VALUES WERE THAT OF BEING A COMMUNITY YOUTH ACTIVITY, TO TEACH LIFE LESSON S AND HAVE FUN. LARRY REALLY ALLUDED TO THAT TOO.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer: later: Quartermaster, assistant drum instructor

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

I liked, and agreed with, Larry's comment about the different attitudes of different corps. I'd have to say, of the three corps I marched with, I learned the most in the Cavaliers, I performed the best with Spirit (which was barely a drum corps anyway), but I had the most fun with, and established the most long-lasting friendships in, the Imperials. And, by the way, it's the only alumni website I am active on.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Don't know about Dave's comment about following values established for the organization. Seems to me that some of those values are going to change over time. Like all Chicago corps, the Cavaliers used to be a community based group. They aren't now. Same can be said for Madison, Phantom Regiment, the Cadets (they aren't even in New Jersey anymore), Blue Devils, Santa Clara, etc. If these corps followed their original values (usually stated in the by-laws) they would no longer exist. They had to change to be viable.

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 through 1961 Imperials 1962 through 1966

Well, John hit it right on the head! Values = purpose in my example. If it is no longer possible to meet your PURPOSE for existence, if you have to change your purpose to exist; maybe it is BETTER to fold your tent. ?

Today's drum corps (DCI level) exist to serve a new purpose. While that is OK, it is not a purpose for which I have a passion for or even care about.

Frankly, I am not sure how I would feel about the Imperials if they were a top DCI corps now, operating with the same DCI style (not a community corps). Oh sure, like the Cavaliers alumni, I'd be "happy" to see "my corps" out there. But, the only thing that would be the same is the name ... even the uniforms might be different now.

Comments?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I think it depends on how the corps evolves. I would guess that Cavalier alumni are much happier with the corps now than Cadets alumni. I toured with the Cavaliers in 1993, and they still sing the same songs, talk about the same history, know all the old stories. When an "old fart" like me visits, we are introduced to the current corps and encouraged to share memories. From what I understand, the same isn't true for the Cadets (don't know about other corps). I can go to a Cavalier rehearsal/performance and ask someone who was drum major in a certain year, or what year the corps won VFW for the first time, or what year did the original hall burn down, and they know the answers. Yes, there have been changes necessary to survive. But they have maintained their organizational history and traditions. For initiations, they don't do the physically yucky stuff that happened with all corps in the 60s, but each new member is required to have an alumni "sponsor" and to interview that person about the traditions and history of the corps. I doubt any other corps still does anything like that. Simply the fact that they are still all male, and use that as a programming tool, shows that. And part of it is that they have maintained ties with the past. Don Warren has remained active, and he started it all. Jeff Fiedler lead them to their first DCI titles (in fact, ALL of their DCI titles), and he started marching in the mid-70s with the Cavalier Cadets. So the connection to the past has never been broken. With Don and Jeff both gone now, it will be interesting to see if it continues. But the fact that alumni continue to volunteer and support the corps from the 50s on should help maintain those traditions.

And for once, let's dispense with the usual Cavalier bashing in response to this rant, because this isn't about the superiority of the Cavaliers, it's a response to the question at hand.

But I will give the Cadets this much - except for a strange experiment with double-sided uniforms, they have stuck to the original ones all this time (except for the guard, who often look like they forgot their uniforms)! But sometimes that makes for a strange juxtaposition with the show they're performing...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

It appears to me that a "Philosophical" question, develops into a series of questions. The first seems to be most important. The "what if" concerning the Booster Group seems to be pertinent in the sense of involving the Alumni, to a greater extent than they were and needed to be, in order to be successful. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that what I'm saying is based on the dramatic changes caused by the creation of DCI in the 1970's, but the Boosters, with or without the Alumni, became less important than the need for a generous financial sponsor. Without such an entity, the answer to all the other questions would be No!

In the mid to late 70's, I also felt that the nucleus of talent was present, if not in numbers, but the money to make a sustained run at DCI certainly was not. This may have been a false assumption, but based on the fact, that as late as 1979, the Corps was competitive with the Knights. I think it valid as they did establish themselves at the DCI level.

As to whether or not we could recruit enough local members, I would think initially yes, but long term I would seriously doubt it. I would anticipate, that now we would be in the same position as everyone else.

As to your question, Dave, would we really want to do this, my answer would be no. If I were speaking for myself, and having been involved in the 70's and knowing how the Corps members percieved the situation, there was no other route to go. I agree with Larry, that the experience of winning, on occasion, might have been enough. It was not. I think if you go back and read Mike Zajdel's post on another thread, he points out that he wanted a chance to experience DCI in person and if he couldn't do it with the Imperials, he'd do it with someone else. To Mike's credit he never did, but many others did. In 1980, there were no less than seventeen Imperials, from the 1979 Corps, marching in five different DCI corps.

The bottom line is, that given sufficient financial funds, there is no reason Norwood couldn't have accomplished any goals that it set for itself. You wouldn't have to look farther than the Star of Indiana to prove it. Would we have wanted to do it? I feel that decision should have beem ;eft up to the young adults that marched, because they were the reason that we devoted so much time to Norwood.

Bob, I want you to notice that I sent this without any rants about the Cavaliers.

Without Don Warren's advice and others, everything we accomplished in the late 70's would not have been possible.

What did you do in the Corps? Managed the Cadets in 1975 and the Imperials from 1976 to 1979

Jim, thanks for a well thought out and useful reply.

There is NO doubt that money was very important, and finding a generous corporate sponsor would have been wonderful.

But, as you pointed out, DCI changed the playing field. And it continues to do so today. Drum corps is no longer a local, community activity serving local youth. In most cases at least, members are attracted to corps from across the US (and other countries!) based on their reputation and style.

There is NO real "community identity". Most corps have a fairly low percentage of members from their "hometown" and they hardly ever appear in their "hometowns". They are traveling professionals.

While the Cavaliers may teach their members the Corps history (glad that they do), that hardly makes them the "Rosemont Cavaliers".
As I said earlier, I personally am not at all sure what my reactions would be to see the Imperials changed in this way.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

For my part, it would have greatly bothered me to lose the connection of the Imperials to a local identification. Those people that join corps today are together for only that season, and unless they return the next year, I'd bet they never see each other again. Certainly, there would be much less NP Alumni interest under such conditions.

It would be interesting to know how many of the current and recent generations of corps membership continue to identify with the corps through alumni conncections. It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have a stronger following here than the current DCI Corps.

For what it's worth, I was never even happy to hear that the Imperials were identifying with Skokie or Mount Prospect. I understand why it happened, and it certainly helped to delay the inevitable, but it's the Norwood Park Imperials that I know. You might notice that this web site does not identify the Corps in any way other than related to Norwood Park. Perhaps that's unfair, but it's never been discussed or written in any other way

Bottom line: any sort of change that allowed the Imperials to continue and become a DCI Corps would not have pleased me at all. They could have become another Corps - Imperial Knights, maybe, and I could handle it, but the Norwood Park Imperials just wasn't that kind of Corps.

In a similar fashion, I cannot relate the current DCI versions of any corps that have evolved from the corps of my era to those I knew 40 years ago. Maybe we should ask some of those that were in the Cavaliers of the 60s if they think today's Cavaliers represent their heritage. Some probably don't care, but it might be useful to know. The names are the same, but the similarities end there.

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Larry echoes many of my feelings.

They always say that "change is inevitable", and that IS true. But, in this case, "change" means TOTAL change ... from what "was" to what "is".

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

One thing I really wish we had done in 1980 was to take a picture of all of us at DCI that marched together in 78-79, in our "new" uniforms. That would have been a great keepsake! And an interesting point is that we all spent literally our lives together in 78-79, but many of us never saw each other in 80, despite being on tour to many of the same shows! Such was the change for touring that there really wasn't any free time to socialize with another corps much. I saw George whenever I needed a drum head, because Spirit was broke...

And I never referred to the Imperials as anything but Norwood Park either, and still don't, despite the fact that they were Skokie for pretty much all of my time with the corps. I was mad when we took the NP off the patch!

As for how the 60s-70s Cavaliers feel about the current corps, I know they hate the way they sing Raingbow and the corps song (they've become more rap songs these days), and the guard bothers us, but other than that, I think they've accepted that drum corps has changed, and they're happy that they're winning again. Which makes another interesting point - many Cavalier alumni disappeared during the 70s, when the corps was down, and reappeared in the 80s and 90s when they started winning again. Maybe that's why Norwood alumni disappeared in the early 70s?

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79