I don't know if we've done this before, but what would you all nominate as the best Norwood corps of each decade? I don't know much about the 40s and 50s, and I've only heard recordings from the 60s, but here are my nominations:

1960s - from the recordings I've heard, 1966 seems to be the peak in most every respect.

1970s - I would include 1970 (the last time the corps had any real chance nationally; just ask Santa Clara), 1973 (an innovative show and a huge improvement over previous years), and 1979 (acceptance of our new niche in the DCI pecking order, and a State Championship making us the "best of the rest", which was our goal, plus making finals at both AL and VFW Nationals).

OK, let's wake up out there and get arguing (I mean discussing)!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, this will be interesting. There are so many factors involved that it will, I think, generate a LOT of variety in alumni comments!

Besides "competitive results", there are factors such as: internal dynamics, innovation and program quality, personal factors.

Looking at the scores and placings from VFW and Legion, the Corps did best competitively in the 1950s and 60s. Musically, the 1960s and 1970s were better.

From my years with the corps, 1962 and 63 were the best in most respects. 1966 was a very good year both competitively and musically. There were, however, some downsides then due to personnel issues.

1970 was a surprisingly good year .. and beating Santa Clara was a terrific event for us.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

The best corps in the 1960s was 1966 with 1965 a close second. In 1966 we won 7 shows and finished second 4 times (we competed in 23 shows). A couple of those second place finishes had margins of 0.1 or less (somehow we lost to the Vanguard by 0.001). In 1965 we won 6 shows and finished second 6 times (we competed in 21 shows). Like 1966 we had several second place finishes that had close margins (less than 0.5 to Cavaliers and 0.3 to the Troopers).

In 1962 we won 2 shows and placed second 3 times (out of 20 shows). In 1963 we didn't win a contest and placed second 3 times (out of 15 shows). In 1962 and 1963 it seemed that the best we could do was finish in third and maybe fourth if Madison or Belleville were in the show. We weren't competitive with the Cavaliers and Royal Airs. The 1962 and 1963 corps had a lot of experience but the music didn't work. A "what if question" is how that group of experienced (a lot of 19 and 20 year olds in 1962 and 1963 corps) Imperials would have done with the 1966 arrangements.

I enjoyed the 1965 and 1966 seasons a lot more than 1962 and 1963. Mainly because we were very competitive and it's more fun when you really do have a chance to win or come in a close second. We had some extra-circular issues including one that impacted our placement at nationals in 1965 (discussed elsewhere in the forum) that likely had some impact in 1966 Nationals placement as well; but looking back 1965 and 1966 were great years.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 1959-66 (Cadets 59-61 Imperials 62-66)

Well, I wasn't there (being only 5 years old at the time), but the 1947 corps winning the FIRST State title for the corps ... and then doing it for three years ... must be the best of the 1940s! AND, going to the corps first Nationals in 1949 and placing 6th! Wow.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I wasn't involved in the corps in the 1950s (except my first year in the Cadets 1959) but it would seem to me the 1956 corps that finished 2nd at VFW Nationals in Dallas might be the top corps. I do remember the 1959 corps (very similar to the corps in 1960) and would have to say that corps would also be considered. They competed in American Legion Nationals in 1959 at Minneapolis (no finals) and placed 6th. That night the contest at Stillwater had all the top corps in a contest which saw Blessed Sacrament and the Cavaliers tied for first with Norwood right behind them.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 59-61 Imperials 62 through 66

John, some good observations. Here are some thoughts:

1. the 1956 National only had 9 corps and a lot of the top eastern corps weren't there. In 1955 (Miami), the Imperials placed 7th with a much greater number of top corps.

2. That Stlllwater show was a hoot! It was almost like being in 3rd place at Nationals! But, placing 6th was fine too. That WAS a good year.

The truth is that it was ALWAYS fun to be in the corps. We did better in some years than others but always did our best and had a great time. Lots of kids learned a lot.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I have to pass on the 40's and 50's, even though I may be old enough, since I didn't know the activity existed. I have to agree, based on the CD that 1966 seemed to be extremely talented. Again I have to pass on the 1970 Corps as I was not lucky enough to have seen or heard them.

Bob, I agree about the 1973 Imperials having had the opportunity to see them in DesPlaines. It was a good show, but it always amazed me that they didn't get penalized right off the field. The unguarded American flags in finale and the soprano soloist starting off the field seemed to me would have constituted major penalties, though I understand the flags were replaced by Spirit of 76 flags. I have a disagreement in that though I think the drum line was better in 1979, the Corps over all was better in 1978. I don,t think there is any question that the horn line was more talented. I have always thought that the 1979 Corps received the benefit of the good work accomplished earlier. I in no way mean this to negate the accomplishments of 1979, but I do feel 1978 was the better group. I have no doubt you'll disagree, but in doing so I would be interested in you comparing the 1973 Imperials with the 1978 and/or the 1979 Imps as you have the distinction of having marched with all of them.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Agree about '65 and '66 being the best years for me but I'll have to vote '65 as the best. Comming off a poor year in '64 made '65 very exciting. Even though '66 was a great year too, our expectations were even higher than '65. So.....my vote for the 60's is 1965.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritione

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 61-63 Imperials 64-70

We cut the bottom stripe off the American flags, so no penalty. As for the horn player in the stands, I'm not sure how that one went untouched, but it was a neat effect!

As for comparing 73 to 78/79, it was a completely different organization. The average age was younger in the later years, and we were MUCH better behaved. I think we might have been a little more serious about what we were doing in the later years, too. From a performance standpoint, it's tough to say because I went to a DCI corps in between which changed my outlook somewhat. But if you talk about accomplishments compared to expectations, the later years were stronger. I think those two corps (78/79) rose above expectations, while the 73 corps, although much better than the previous two years, was still too unorganized and unfocused to achieve what we might have been. And drum corps itself had changed so much in those 5 years that it's tough to compare. I think the later years benefited from a much calmer situation regarding management, etc. - the off field stuff - than 73 had, where there always seemed to be turmoil.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, I thank you for your perspective and greatly agree that it would be extremely difficult to compare 73 to 78/79 because of the differences you described. I will always wonder what might have been if it had been possible to hold the 1973 corps together until the cadets, who comprised a good part of the later years Imps, came up. The results might have been very interesting to say the least.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

I agree, and I would never fault the corps members for any of it. Yes, we had a lot of "characters" in the corps, but what corps didn't? I think we would have gladly worked out butts off if we had better leadership, but we always seemed to be chasing our tails. If you look at any successful corps, there is always a person who is the "face" of the organization - Don Warren (Cavaliers), Sie Luyre (Royal Airs), Jerry Seawright (Blue Devils), Gayle Royer (Santa Clara Vanguard), and in earlier times, Rick Maas (Norwood). Maybe that's what we were missing in the early 70s? We were gaining members from other folding corps (Franklin Park Colonels, etc.), but there wasn't anything to really unite us or rally around. We had lost our identity. Maybe that's why the Cadets were able to save the corps, because there was always Dick Snyder and George Munzer for consistency.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Re: the 1973 corps show. Bob may have opened up "Pandora's box" on this ... he said:

"We cut the bottom stripe off the American flags, so no penalty. As for the horn player in the stands, I'm not sure how that one went untouched, but it was a neat effect!"
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1. I don't think that they used REAL American Flags. I believe that it has been previously posted that the corps used some form of "theatrical flag"... which is supposed to "look like" a flag (like the bunting used at many sites.) If the corps DID cut a real flag to do this, I would be EXTREMELY unhappy.

2. The horn player in the stands is an obvious violation. Not sure why it was ignored. I never saw it done myself.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I was only 13, so I wasn't in on the discussion of how to do this - Donna was in the guard, so maybe she has a better explanation. I know a lot of this kind of stuff was done then to avoid flag penalties and still honor the country, before these patriotic numbers disappeared completely.

The horn player in the stands was a cool effect, and I don't remember anyone else ever doing it.

Maybe we weren't penalized because we weren't a threat to many corps competitively so they just didn't bother to protest. Unfortunately, none of the staff members of the time are here in the forum to add their thinking, which would really be interesting.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

That flag stuff is news to me. It was done after the gun went off, so we weren't being judged. Nick played in the stands while Ed Stojak echoed from the field. I thought they wanted Ed in the stands until they realized he was over age and would sure to be caught. I thought the rule was all members had to cross the starting line, and he did after coming out of the stands. My memory for details is failing.

1. I am not sure about flag code violations ... but it is possible that a penalty could still be assessed AFTER field judging had ceased. Good point to check on. :)

2. Donna is correct about the "starting line" rule ... all members were required to cross the starting line. But, there may have been a TIME requirement too ... cross the line within a certain time frame. Not sure about that either. It may be that the Imperials were within the rules and just "stretched" the point a bit.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Seems I may have inadvertently started another controversy by asking a simple question and putting Bob right in the middle. I think that both things were subject to penalty.
Even though field judging had ceased, it seems to me that the penalty judge continued assessing flag penalties until the Corps was completely off the field. I distinctly remember the 1976 Imps getting a penalty because the flag squad didn,t go around the corner flag before leaving the field at West Chicago and trooping the line in front of the stands.

As far as the soprano in the stands, I would point out that, tecnically, he was over the front side line at the start of the show. It is my understanding that the only person who could be over that line was the drum major and no one else.
I,m sure Donna that the guard in particular had to be extremely careful in picking up rifles, etc so that they didn,t step over the line. His being over the front line should have caused the penalty to be assessed and how he entered the field becoming a non-factor.


There is no doubt that both parts of the show added a great deal to the performance and if they skirted the line of legality, it sure enhanced the general effect.

As far as who was reponsible, I would assume that the whole thing was a collective effort and that the whole management and instructional staff were aware of the inherent risks and considered them worth taking.

Larry, I competely agree about the disrespect for the flag by cutting off stripes. The same result could have been achieved by using a Spirit of 76 flag. I understood Henry to tell me that they did exactly that later in the season, but I don't know that for a fact.


Dave, you maybe right that they were within the rules and stretched them to their advantage, but I have serious reservations even though they seem to have gotten away with it.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Well, I really enjoyed 1959, with the AL and Stlllwater; and 1962, with the fine showing at VFW; and the DREAM in 1963. But, I'd also have to agree with Tom Grana that 1965 was great too. That was a really fun year .. especially coming off of 1964!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

In 1964 the corps was young with new management and new instructors. That corps actually held it's own and was as competitive as the 1962 and 1963 corps. Won a couple of shows and still finished in 3rd or 4th most times. The competition was also getting better. The Vanguard was improving as were corps like the Racine Scouts and Millstadt Crusaders. Also, the Spartans (combination of Chi-Angels and Morton Grove Cougars) were in the mix as were the Madison Scouts and Belleville Black Knights (although neither were as strong as in the three or four previous seasons). Of course the Cavaliers, Royal Airs and Kilties were still at the top but more often than not Norwood was "the best of the rest" as it had been in previous seasons. So the 1964 corps wasn't that bad. Some may have felt that way because we didn't have the "older" (19 and 20 year olds) members we'd had in the two previous seasons.

In 1965 and 1966 things were very competitive. Not only was Norwood much improved but so were the Vanguard (really both corps were completely different in terms of musical style than in previous seasons). 1965 was much different than previous versions of Norwood and much more successful on the field. In 1966 the corps changed it's entire repitore. 1966 had more difficult arrangements than 1966 but this was possible because the core group of kids was the group that marched in 1964 and we'd all gotten more experience.

Actually, I'd probably group all three of those seasons together as an era--the best corps. The 1965 season was the result of progress in 1964 and 1966 was the result of the progress and experience from both 1964 and 1965. During this period the management of the corps was stable during and the primary brass, percussion and M&M instructors got a lot of help from alumni from the late 50s and early 60s. As there were more competitive corps during this period, the atablily (management, instructors, members) of the organization allowed the corps to be competitive.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 1959-1961 Cadets 1962-1966 Imperials

John, though I never saw the 60's Imperials, what you describe seems to be a mirror image of the late 70's. The corps in 1976 had to be rebuilt from the ground up as there were probably no more than ten members left from the previous year. By 1978 and 1979, the corps showed the experience that had been gained by what could only be described as a group of young veterans. The instructional staff also had to be replaced and was greatly enhanced by the alumni who worked with them. John Donnelly Jr, Hank Grana, Frank Gill, Mark Tryba and Bob Shreffler, along with others, were invaluable. It only seems to prove how many times the Imperials went through the same cycles.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

1964 wasn't a complete rebuilding job as I understand occurred in the 70s. The management changed by the parents group was still very solid and I'd argue that the major change was having Rick Maass as the corps manager/director. I'd say that we added maybe 25 percent in the brass and drum lines. The additions were 13 and 14 year olds moving up from the Cadets and strategic additions from corps like Aurora Vaqueros and St Alexis. We didn't strip the Cadets--those who moved up were at the age when they'd normally make the transition. 1964 was more of a confidence/experience builder for the 15 to 17 year olds who were now the leaders. After 1963 we had only two first sopranos who hadn't aged out. Kids who'd played second soprano (and even third soprano) were now carrying the brass line. Same with the snare section in the drum line (tenor drummers moved to snare).

That core group from 1964 was 17 to 19 years old in 1966. In 1966 we also had kids playing second soprano and second baritone who could handle the first soprano and first baritone parts.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 1959-1961 Cadets 1962-1966 Imperials

John, I understand that it was not a complete rebuilding job in the 60's, but we didn't have much choice in the late 70's. I think it only fair to point out that we did not strip the cadets of their membership. The cadets numbered around 90 at the end of 1975 and of the that number we brought up approximately 35. All those were at least 14 or older. They formed the nucleus to which were added 12 from Bradley and approximately 10 to 12 who remained from the Imperials of 75. The idea that the Cadets were stripped is a total misconception and erroneous. In the following years, as the cadets graduated to the Imperials, the B corps became much smaller in numbers due to a failure of recruiting new members and attrition of older members. The change of practice facility from Alvernia HS to the American Legion Post in Skokie resulted in their inability to retain members who for the most part lived in Chicago. In addition, in 1978 and 1979, we too added members from the Illiana Lancers and the Scarlet Knights. I would also point out the 15 to 17 year olds, who in the 60's would have made up the new leadership, chose to use the option that existed in the 70's, namely DCI. The fact that the Imperials survived at all was a tribute to those 35 cadets who, without that experienced leadship, managed to get the job done in spite of all the obstacles they had to overcome.

The comparison was of the similarity of circumstances and not of the competitive strengths of the two entirely different eras of drum corps.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Let me try to get this thread back on track and OFF of being overly critical about certain years or things done during those years.

As an outsider, the best Imperials corps I saw were from 1966-1968. Not the best corps on the field, but very entertaining and competitive. I missed the show at McCormicks place so I can't make a judgement there or include it. Afterward in 1969 it was apparent that the Imperials were having some real difficulty fielding a competitive corps.

The 1970 corps showed amazing improvement, made a major impression and strides competitively, which allowed the Imperials to field a very credible corps for a couple years thereafter. Then it went on the infamous membership roller coaster ride. But I'm NOT going to join in the discussion (battering) of management during those years because I think that topic has literally been beaten to death on here, which to me doesn't really serve any meaningful purpose. It was what it was, period! The members from those years have a right for their corps not to be dissected or desecrated 33 years after the fact.

Thankfully the corps made a comeback as a viable and competitive drum corps in the latter part of the decade thanks to good leadership and a lot of dedicated kids.

But getting back to the original thread, 66-68.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

I like Bob's original idea of looking at this topic by DECADES. In fact, we did this a while back looking at "the best junior corps during the years we marched. (Look for that thread).
A summary is:

GREATEST CORPS

Blessed Sacrament Golden Knights
Holy Name/ Garfield Cadets
Madison Explorer Scouts/ Madison Scouts
Santa Clara Vanguard
St. Vincent Cadets (Bayonne, NJ) 1940s-1950s

Best Corps in a decade:
1940s - Holy Name/ St. Vincent
1950s - Holy Name/ Blessed Sac.
1960s - Blessed Sacrament
1970s - Santa Clara/ Concord Blue Devils
1980s - Concord / Garfield
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For the Imperials, we seem to be looking at:
1940s - 1947 (first State title)
1950s - 1959
1960s - 1966
1970s - 1970 or 1979
1980s - ?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63