Jerry Davidson concluded an excellent post on an other discussion thread with this:

A very round about way of saying that many of those corps might still be alive had it not been for the hostile elimination of independent shows that the corps could hang their competitive hats on. To tie it all together, Imperials may have been one of those corps heavily affected by the elimination of shows that they were tied to historically.
-----------------------------------------------

I fully agree with his analysis. Not only did DCI work aggressively to discredit and weaken some major independent shows across the country (World Open, Bluegrass Nationals and others come to mind), but they made it nearly impossible to run local shows effectively. And, corps like the Imperials were dependent on shows like: Cedarburg, Horican, Ottawa, Racine, Streator, McHenry, Wilmot, Janesville, etc. for competition and funding. In some cases, we were the "reigning champs"!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

This is true. DCI actually softened their stance on some of these things after a few years (like requiring a minimum number of DCI members to be at any show, and only using approved judges), but the damage was already done.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

well, the damage was done. DCI was able to "kill off" most local drum corps shows .. and now, even if there were some drum corps (such as the new "small drum corps" being started) there are NO SHOWS for them!

THANK YOU DCI for killing off real, community and local, drum corps.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I certainly agree with you concerning DCI and the effect it had on the activity as a whole. There is no question of the adverse effect they had on drum corps with the exception of the elite few.

I do disagree that they were the cause of the elimination of independent corps shows at the local level. As I pointed out, in a post on another thread [Corps management in January of this year], that DCM was the real culprit in the elimination of IDBCA, Musical Units, Parade Specialists, etc. The rules as set up by DCM, an promoted by the DCI corps, made it totally impossible for those booking agents to survive and in turn made it financially unfeasable for the small local shows to continue to exist. The ironic part is that the small corps, who could have prevented it happening, followed the DCI Corps blindly down the path to their own oblivion. Without the small local shows, it became impossible for the non-DCI corps to survive and led to the disbandment of corps such as the Imperials.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Jim, good point about DCM. I thought that DCM was "part of" the DCI mix. Seems like everyone wanted to be "in charge".

Too bad, because after all is said an done, local drum corps activity is DEAD!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Jim makes a good point. Drum corps abandoned the VFW and Legion because they felt trapped, only to enslave themselves to a new master that would hurt more corps than it would help. Maybe that's why the late 70s/early 80s were fun, because for a while both types of corps were able to survive and thrive. We never felt like less of a drum corps in 78-79 than the "big guys"; we just had a different vision and different goals.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, you are so right about the late 70's and early 80's. The sad part is that corps like the Vaqueros, Illiana Lancers, Knights, etc. held meetings and discussed the ramifications of DCM and what we were getting ourselves into. What we accomplished, starting in 1976, could never have been done inside the parameters set down in the rules of DCM. The death of independent promoters led to the complete dissolution of small shows and the ability to rebuild a corps by facing corps on the same level. It is truly a shame that the smaller corps ignored that which was obvious and failed to listen to the warnings. If the finger should be pointed at any one, it should be at the management of the small corps, and not just at DCI or DCM, because the death of the activity as we know was their own fault.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Jim .... dumb, dumb, dumb!

I think it was Forrest Gump who said: "Stupid is as stupid does".

Lack of foresight at least!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I think the part of this that is totally ironic is, that is was apparent that DCI and DCM were allied in their cause to eliminate the competition, for lack of a better description. Then in the end, when there were few corps attending DCM shows because of the previous action of the two allies, DCI turned on the only legitimate threat to their total dominance left existing and finally attacked and eliminated a weakened DCM.

Analogy: (please bear with me on this)

It's very much like a T-Rex (DCI) while gobbling up larger foes (World Open, CYO, VFW, AL, etc) befriending and standing back, letting a Raptor (DCM) do all of it's light work and gorge on the smaller, weakened animals and herds (small local corps and remaining local associations). Then when all or near all of the food chain (larger foes, mid sized corps, small local corps, smaller associations, booking agents, etc.) had been effectively eliminated by the lethal combination of the T-Rex and Raptor, the T-Rex simply turned on and ate the Raptor, thus standing as the last, largest and most lethal, dominant predator left.

The next, obvious question within this analogy begs an answer: Who or what is left for the largest predator, the T-Rex to feed on? The obvious answer: Nothing! So it will lose weight, thin to bare bones and eventually die.....or feed on it's unnecessary parts (those lesser division corps allowed by the T-Rex and Raptor to remain standing) to stay alive, for at least a while.

Sorry for the graphic analogy, but is it possible I may exposed the beast for what it is and how it quite possibly have caused it's own eventual demise?

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

Jerry,
Pappa T-Rex (Marching Bands) may gobble up T-Rex. Pappa T-Rex survives because...
...because there's always new kids in school.

What did you do in the Corps? drum, instruct

What years were you a Corps member? 61-69

While I agree with Jerry's story, John is right about marching bands.
There are always new students coming in, and the really good band programs know how to do this successfully.

Really active states, such as Indiana (and others), will routinely have over a hundred bands competing in their state preliminary process ... in 3 or 4 divisions.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

But where does that leave drum corps? Rhetorical question because I am not yet convinced the the bands are organized well enough or will gobble up drum corps.

I just think DCI will die and as always happens in the evolutionary process, a new species of drum corps will emerge. Nature finds a way.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

Jerry made a good point. I'd say:

1. High school Marching Bands wil; certainly survive and prosper. Groups such as MBA and the like will also do well.

2. Will they "gobble up" drum corps? Not sure, but I'd agree that DCI will not last. In fact, the current economic situation might kill them off now.

3. I'd look for evolution again! Some combination of "small drum corps", bands and the existing super corps (which might regress to "large local corps") will happen. Something about this activity, though, always moves it to finding a way to have a NATIONAL CHAMPION for the competitive corps!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

However...

Given the current economic situation, especially as it relates to schools, COMPETITIVE marching bands could be in trouble. Honestly, it is ridiculously scary how much money some of these bands spend on their marching shows, between design, instructional staff, costumes (formerly known as uniforms), props, etc. Then add in the un-Godly number of rehearsal hours required to produce the quality they want with the students they have, and you have a potentially volatile mix. I am a school administrator (luckily in elementary), and I have a music degree, am a former band director and 11-year drum corps member - but even I couldn't justify spending that kind of money on a 10-minute performance repeated ad nauseum from the summer through the winter. And followed by winter guard and indoor drum line competitions.

But there WILL always be marching bands of some sort, as long as there is football - and we all know there will always be football! Most high school band directors are former DCI marching members, who did NOT win DCI or march in a contender, and therefore they are still chasing that championship, only through their students. I know there are exceptions, so we don't need to go down that path. But honestly, if most of your performances are at football games, shouldn't you at least play SOMETHING the crowd can understand and enjoy, besides your fight song?

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

I completely agree with almost all of Bob's last post. In this economic climate, the bands are potentially in trouble also. The amount of money being spent on these bizarre creations that they now call shows just staggers the mind. I had lunch yesterday with a couple of the parents who were in the boosters club when I was director and also had younger kids coming up, so they are still involved with the boosters and the guy that followed me. I was staggered by what they told me with regard to spending and budget in the band. HE pays more for his drill that I paid for my entire staff. The ironic thing is that he hasn't come near the levels of competitive excellence that my bands achieved. So what exactly are they achieving with all of these extra dollars??? To stay within the current style of show? Does that justify a budget that is 5 times what it was 8 years ago? I think NOT!
Especially when you consider that they are not near the competitive level that the band used to be when it spent far less and got far more bang for the buck, while producing competitive shows that the audience actually understood and enjoyed! Not to mention that the band also is roughly 60% the size it used to be, simply because it has become too expensive and time consuming for kids to belong. Sound familiar?

Here is something else that I will throw in here for your consideration and discussion. One of the major reasons that there are fewer drum corps and it now costs so much to run a competitive band or drum corps is the relative, 'over the top' financial burden and enormous cost of the instruction staff and the "custom" writing of the drill & music. The difference being that it used to be a hobby for many who chose to be instructors back in the day, so the top instructors and arrangers would work for far less money than mere "clingon" techs are getting now. They would charge less if it was in the better interest of the corps or band and that's what the market paid. Now the market is open to the highest bidder and many instructors make their entire living off of competitive marching band and drum corps, and they make big bucks doing it! Paying $15,000 for a drill and the person coming out to teach the drill??? It's happening! $8-9,000 for music arrangements? It's happening!
That's almost $1000 a minute just for music, not counting drums arrangements, visuals, color guard, etc......
****! I have to start charging more for my arrangements!

Actually I am glad that I got out when I did because I just couldn't justify paying that much money for a show that so very few people understand, let alone enjoy. A major reason both drum corps and competitive bands basically perform shows that aren't enjoyable is that the arrangers, choreographers, judges, etc basically dictate the cost and direction the activity is going in. Naturally, the band directors can choose not to go in that direction but they are caught in a catch 22, screwed if you do, screwed if you don't. It's a competitive spiral that will eventually hit critical mass financially. It's like throwing money down a competitive black hole. It just may hit a point where, just to survive, many bands will have to withdraw from competitive marching band and go back to playing halftime shows and parades. It's either that or spend their way into oblivion.

Another question to consider. In tough economic times which program will a school system cut first to lower their budget? Hint: It sure won't be football!

I left many variables intentionally open for the sake of discussion.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

Wow! It seems that a lot of bands might be following the "DCI model", which will lead to destruction!

The dollar amounts Jerry quoted are totally out of sight and silly. But, that is the same thing DCI and their wonderful instructor staff people have been doing.

Well, maybe this whole thing just has to fall down and restart.

It certainly has gotten way out of control.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I'll have to leave the discussion about bands to those more qualified. I would however point out that many bands are year around entities and not just school year organizations. As far back as the 1978 Dave Morrison, who was director of the Prospect H.S band, was the horn instructor for the Imperials. He tried to bring some of his band members to the corps, but the time factor of summer band prevented that happening. Even though Dave went on to work with some DCI corps as an assistant, it precluded him from remaining as principal instructor with the Imperials. I would be fairly sure that even today that the comittment to summer band would remove any large number of their members from marching in drum corps. It seems to be just one more factor, along with other organized summer activities, that were contributors to the demise of small drum corps. In my view, it seems highly unlikely that drums corps will ever return as we knew it. I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that it comes back as the type of activity, that Dave Borck so often talks about, a neighborhood youth organization without the pressures of DCI.

What did you do in the Corps? Cadet Manager 1975, Imperial Manager 1976-1979

Good observations, Jim.

Dave Morrison DID work with some DCI corps (Cavaliers for example) and also did some judging. But, his best work was as the director of the Prospect HS band programs .. excellent work on both concert and marching band programs!

I agree .. it would be great to see a return to local, neighborhood or community based drum corps. But, that is NOT likely!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Jim's right. The situation with Dave is not uncommon with band directors that have tried to work with drum corps. If their band has any kind of summer program and they hope to have something that resembles a life, drum corps just isn't in the picture. It also isn't in the picture for kids who have an ample schedule from their band. I personally tried doing both for a while and found that it was just too much of a stressful combination for me to work a drum corps and still run my band efficiently. A good band director puts his band first and his extra affiliations way after that, like Dave did.

As for drum corps ever coming back, I think it is possible if some small associations like SDCA or something similar find a niche and have some success. It will be slow at first, but when DCI finally either collapses or takes off with about 8 of it's top corps and tours wherever, then the rest will be forced to reorganize. That is where and when the new beginning will happen, IF it does. Also, if we have a long term financial downturn, we will see band programs being dropped by school systems to save money. Those kids will need an alternative summer program, which is where a revived drum corps activity could sprout from. I have no doubt that it will happen eventually, but I am not sure when. I am convinced though that drum corps on a local level will make a comeback. All age corps are the seeds of the new activity. It maybe much different than we experienced, but it will come back because nature abhors a vacuum. Right now that might not be apparent, but it will be eventually when there are too many kids out roaming the streets with nothing to do and no role models to guide them. Then there will be a call for activities for youth, just like in the 30s and 40s. Drum corps will then re-emerge from obscurity if there are enough people left who remember what it was.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

Most of the competitive marching band activities with which I am familiar aren't SUMMER programs at all .. they are FALL programs, held in conjunction with State High School associations or MBA type organizations. There ARE some summer band contests in Wisconsin, Illinois and Minnesota (maybe others too) but it is very limited.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

The summer schedule I was referring to are practices and camps. Many of the really good programs have rehearsals throughout the summer. The summer acts in the same way for bands that winter does for drum corps. Thought you understood that.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81

Reread that post, thought it sounded wrong and want to make it clear that I meant no disrespect by the last sentence.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Arranger and Corps manager in 81