Most of the Imperials alumni already know that I have a fairly LOW opinion of the Cavaliers. Yes, they have a great booster group and a very solid management (developed by Don Warren). Wish we had that in the Imperials.

But, (opinion) in the 1960s, when they achieved so many successes, their field shows were written for easy success. And, their members were SO arrogant that it hurt everyone else. It became very easy to dislike the Cavaliers.

So .... that is ONE opinion. Let's hear others!

I'm sure that winning that much led to a certain arrogance. It wasn't there when I marched with them, but it's tough to be arrogant in 7th and 8th place! And I have noticed some of it return in the past ten years. It was not drilled into the corps as arrogance, but rather confidence.

As for the shows being simple, I can only go by a tape I have from 1967 with the Cavaliers, Boston, Sac, and the Royal Airs and say that the Cavaliers drill was way ahead of the others in design and difficulty. Much more movement, asymetical patterns, etc. Still lots of standing around and squad work from the other corps. And I know that most Cavalier drum music wasn't any easy than anyone elses. It was always the horn line that was suspect, and in the few years they didn't win nationals, it can be traced to that caption, along with GE. Sal and Larry know how to "play the game" - and they would be the first to admit that, by the way - to produce wins. And, isn't that what drum corps was about? I know it always was for me. EVERY corps had fun - winning was what made the difference from corps to corps. And the growth of the midwest corps started with the Cavaliers, and everyone else (Norwood, Royals, Vanguard) benefitted from that through the rivalries that were built. That's part of what's missing in drum corps today - everyone is so nice to each other!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

They are nice to each other because a lot of the kids switch organizations each year.

It was my first Tag Day in 1980. It was in Glenview. I was taging an intersection and a car pulled up to the stop light. I walked up to the driver window and asked the lady if she'd like to donate to the Imperials Drum & Bugle Corps and that we provide kids with an outlet to keep them off the street.

I'll never forget her response in a whiney voice. "oh, I can't do that, my Son's in the Cavaliers."

After 1983 season, I was weighing my marching options. At the time, I wanted to join a DCI level Corps to get that experience. My 1st choice? Madison, second choice, Phantom. Cavaliers never entered my mind.

Then she drove off as the light changed. Kind of skewed my opinion before I even saw them.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 - 1983

I don't like green to this day, had some friends that joined them I didn't deal with them to much after that. Loved to beat them, happened a few times, liked it better when they literally got their A's beat Thanks Norwood. Sorry I couldn't get my red jacket off fast enough to help you, you guys had all the fun. Ahh the memories, I will say I always liked how their base drums were tuned. Any Cavies reading this no hard feelings "Just Good Business".

What did you do in the Corps? Drum line

I marched in both the Imperials and the Cavaliers and can tell you that just like in any area of life (I'm channeling Coach Ditka here) there were arrogant people in both organizations. No doubt about it though, the Cavaliers attracted way more arrogant people but I think that is normal when you are dealing with an all male environment and competing at that level.

That said, I completely understand why some people just don't like the Cavaliers. Their color guard alone is reason not to like them. Add to that their sustained level of success, their passionate fan base, and their political power within the drum corp world, and there are more than enough reasons not to like them? In many ways they are like Notre Dame. You either love them or hate them; there is not much middle room.

But even with all that said, I think it is petty to label an entire body of people as being arrogant because of the actions of some. Wouldn’t that be like labeling all drum corp judges as arrogant because of the actions of a few?

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? 72-79

Peter .. the answer is YES, that would be petty.

When I think back during the earlier years of Drum Corps and how many of us were on the same wave length
in our feelings toward the Cavaliers and how they kept
winning one contest after another it did become very
discouraging even though we sometimes beat ourselves
silly at times trying to put on a better show and
maybe,just maybe it would happen,that we would come out on top.And if it didn't work out this contest,we
always had the next contest to try and do it again.

I know that there were some contests that they really
didn't deserve to win and yet they did,some were won on reputation and some because there were the
Cavaliers.I can remember a couple of times and this was said to me directly from members of the Cavaliers
that they felt they were going to loose this one.

You have to take in consideration,who the judges were,
where the contest was being held,etc,etc,etc.

I myself gave them credit,for there management,the
support groups and what they achieved during that
time.

Ask me if I liked them,no I didn't.Were they arrogant?
yes there was a lot of that.I can't say that all were
like that,but there was a good percentage of them.But
they did have one thing I agree with,and that is
confidence to win.

Even to this day,whenever the Cavaliers lose,I get a
certain amount of satisfaction,maybe its because myself and others that were in Norwood during those
years never had that opportunity.

What did you do in the Corps? French horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

I agree that a portion of the blame should fall on a few lame judges. Getting an off the wall penalty and losing to "Them" was hurtful, and degrading. Also how can NP beat SC vanguard one night and the next lose by 10 points the next night. The kind of thing that seamed to happen to a lot of corps in the area. Some thing def def definitely wrong wit some of dem guys.

P.S.hope to see a lot of you tomorrow.

Greg,

You can't include the Santa Clara thing with the others - even Norwood people knew that was a joke. Just look at the rest of the year (and the decade). Did that one show change the entire course of Norwood's destiny? I don't think so. Although that 1970 corps was good - and the last one that had any kind of shot at national ranking - they were not on a par with Santa Clara. That was a case of the judging going Norwood's way, like the complaints that it always went the Cavaliers' way.

And speaking of that, it certainly came to a crashing halt in 1971 for the Cavaliers, didn't it?

Pete brought up an interesting point in that the Cavaliers being all guys may have had something to do with the arrogant attitude, and I can certainly see that. Also, like Pete having marched in both corps, it is much more efficient to rehearse and operate in an all-guy corps, in so many ways. I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it all as well.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, an interesting point about the advantages of being an "all male corps". Never thought about that.

As for the "Santa Clara thing" in 1970 - remember that those were different days, including the judging. This was pre-DCI, and although there were still bad judges and "judges with friends, or pre-set agendas", it wasn't as bad as it is now. A corps having a good night could still beat a corps which had a bad night.

I think that is what happened with Santa Clara that night. Norwood was pretty good that year, but normally would have been beaten by the Vanguard. BUT .. that day the Imperials did a good show (very relaxed, they really had nothing to lose). The Vanguard was really "off" and looked tired after their travels.

And, as you said, the judging went Norwood's way.

The next night, a number of the "well known" and "well connected" judges said that they'd show that the Deerfield result was wrong! After all, the Imperials COULDN'T defeat the SC Vanguard! And, the 10 point score difference emerged.

A review of the recaps from both shows would be interesting. But, this is all water under the bridge now. The course of history was not changed!

Corps died because they didn't keep up with changing times and with the musical and visual tastes of young people. The Cavaliers always adjusted and therefore survived, even when they almost folded on occasions. They have always been well managed and smartly supervised, with a loyal and hard-working alumni base. Others did not know how to do these things. Too often all these corps knew how to do was FIGHT among themselves (the corps management) and complain, and therefore their corps croaked.

Corps did not know how to compete with the onslaught of popularity of teenage sports, etc. They insisted on doing military marching with old-fashioned songs (as the kids saw it), and they military marched themselves right into their military graves, corps after corps. It's just like any company out in the world today... Adjust or die! Many feel it was better to have their corps die than to become the nonsense (as they see it) that they feel the corps are today in 2010. Ok, then die.

At the semis and finals at Indy, I talked, at some length (about various topics), with a FMM of the Cavaliers from the mid '70's. I told him that I am first and foremost an Imperials fan, but have adopted The Cavaliers since the Imperials folded. I said that there are some sore feelings about the Cavaliers stealing Imperials, in various years. His reply was simply, "Can you blame the guys for jumping? They (Imperials) weren't doin' much with them, were they?"

Bill,

I won't ask for the name publicly, but I'd love you to email it to me, because I probably marched with the guy.

I'm sure there was some truth to that at some points (like when I moved over), but other times it wasn't true. People have their own reasons for switching - winning (60's) I'm sure was a big one. Organization and management (early 70's) was probably another. Later it was making finals (late 70's-80's). I think you have to look at the evolution of the two corps through the years to make those judgements.

What did you do in the Corps? Snare; Drum Major; Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Ok, Bob, I will. Bill

Bob is correct in stating that corps members "switch" to another corps for a variety of reasons. And that is OK ... corps aren't supposed to be prison camps for the members.

But, when certain corps sent out "recruiting parties" to other corps practice sites and actively recruit members, that is going too far. Very inappropriate and unsettling.

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What did you do in the Corps? Drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63