A new series of posts on the forum have commented about very graphic violence in the Phantom Regiment show this year. I have not seen this, but it apparently goes beyond the mere "depiction" or "suggestion" of violence (as the Des Plaines Vanguard did 30 years ago). Rather, the depictions are quite graphic and not appropriate in the drum corps (family) setting. See the summary below of comments to date:

-----------------------------------------

Note from Bill Schaefer about graphic violence in the PR show::

Jim, I had an 11 y.o. grand-daughter and her 10 y.o. brother with me the first time that I saw Phantom Regiment, this season. They both had a bit of a problem with the grizzly throat slashing scene, by a drum major yet (right?!). I'd like to see that graphic scene changed. Thanks for your views on the various corps... again, I very much concur, re the junior corps. I'll emphasize how pleasantly surprised I am with the Blue Stars quantity (of participants) and quality of performance this summer. I haven't seen the sr. corps that you mention, but I do enjoy the sr. corps that I have seen.
------------------------------------------------

Bill Schaefer note to Phantom Director:

I just sent this to Phantom's contact email address: "Hi! I'm a long time big fan and supporter of Phantom Regiment. I recently donated to the fuel fund, in fact. I have a concern. The first time that I saw this year's program, I took two of my grandkids with me, as they love drum corps -- a girl, 11, and her 10 y.o. brother. They both were bothered by the throat slashing scene. Is it necessary? Could it be symbolized, or something, rather than being graphic? Please, let's discuss this. Thank you, Bill"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply from PR director

Thank you for your previous support and taking the time to write me with your concerns.

When we were designing the show, we spent much time discussing this section of the show. And in order to really depict the story of the times during Spartacus era, we felt that this was indeed very much a part of the story telling we are doing. We understand that not everyone will agree, and that this will bring up much discussions.

We have a story to tell on our stage, and just like any other theatrical event, we will spur discussions both positively and negatively. There are many Broadway shows and plays that current high schools perform that bring up the same questions. I have been a part of previous drum corps shows that depicted much more violence (i.e. Santa Clara Vanguard and Miss Saigon in 1991). When we get to the larger stadiums, it will be lost on the audience (and judges) if it is not as pronounced as it is.

Again, I understand and respect your position. Thank you for taking the time to write.

(Note: Personally, I (Dave) find this to be a very gratuitous reply ... saying noting about Bill's real concerns about the kids)
----------------------------------------------------

Comment by Bill Schaefer, in a reply to a NP alumni post:

However, I truly wish that they would change that scene, somehow, a.s.a.p., Scott. I wish DCI would step in. They really should. It's just not good, clean, family entertainment, and it degrades drum corps, as an activity. What's next?! Really! I just might see every show first, from now on, before letting the grandkids (6 of them go, from time to time... 2 are too tiny, yet), see it. Sad. Their parents don't know a thing about it; I'm lucky! If they did, I'd hear about it; I'm sure.

Maybe the movie rating system (G, PG, R) is a good idea, actually, if this kind of stuff is going to continue or even grow.

If I had known about the guard girl getting her throat slashed by one of the two drum majors, I never would have had my two grandkids witness it. I would have distracted them, somehow, or just told them that I want them to look away for 20 seconds. It's pretty awful, really. You should see it, Scott... it is chilling, even to me, an adult. I'm serious. Call me sissy Bill.

Violence, depicted in the shows, is something that DCI might want to discuss in the meetings during the winter. I'll suggest that to them, via email, rather than continuing dialog with Rick V., of Phantom, about it.

I'll say one thing, with absolute certainty, Scott, IT IS INAPROPRIATE, GDI, at a drum and bugle corps show. period, say what you might!
---------------------------------------------

What are the reactions of NP alums who have seen this? Do you have comments to add here? Is this a dangerous trend in DCI shows? (For example: what if the "story" they want to depict is even more "earthy"?)

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

If only the crowds would booooo like mad at the sight! They surely knew how to boooo for a coupla years there at The Cadets, while they talked. That was nothing. THIS is something! One man's opinion... mine. Shame on Phantom Regiment, as much as I love em. Shame on them! ~ Bill Schaefer

"We have a story to tell on our stage, and just like any other theatrical event, we will spur discussions both positively and negatively" (Rick Valenzuela of Phantom Regiment, as said to me, Bill Schaefer, on 7/2/08).

2009, DCI show... The story is about rape, so we show rape, naked as could be... raw rape, just as we showed murder, raw murder, in 2008, "on our stage."

I can say, "Look, grandkids, isn't drum and bugle corps ever wonderful!"

This is drum and bugle corps, USA?!

Kind of being ridiculous, Bill. ...and please don't boo the kids.

When the crowd booed when the Cadets talked, no one was booing any kid. The concept was not being accepted; it had nothing to do with a single kid, not one.

Ridiculous? We'll see; we'll see. We'll see what a few more years all brings to "our stage." We'll see how far the envelope of inappropriateness gets pushed. Perhaps it won't get pushed at all; we'll see. It will be interesting to watch.

I was in the Rose Bowl last summer for the championships and when the Cadets came onto the field there were some people in our section that began booing. Some other guy in our section stood up and began to read these people that were booing the "riot act". He said something like "Hey, these kids work really hard and shouldn't have to listen to people booing at them. Have some respect for the marchers!" The people in my section applauded the man and the booing stopped in our section. I thought it was well put. The best thing someone can do if they disapprove of a show is go buy a hotdog or the tshirt of some other corps when the corps is performing. Booing at kids marching on the field is not cool.

Jim,

I whole-heartedly agree. I wish someone had thought those things at finals in 75, when we (Cavaliers) were being booed because of the Muchachoes.

That being said, I think the proper way to register your concerns, Bill, is to go through DCI - but don't hold your breath for any change. In fact, if you look at DCI's history, they LOVE controversy, so your complaints might have the opposite effect. But that simply means that drum corps is like any other art form. The problem is that you usually know ahead of time when looking at art what's going to occur, while you don't at a drum corps show.

And in today's violent society, with what the kids see on video games, it probably hasn't effected many people the way it has you.

Not having seen it, I can't comment on the actual scene in their show. But I've been scared by girls in Phantom's guard before, but for different reasons...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Well, it is pretty hard to ignore when you have little kids with you. And protesting after the fact is not helpful. Especially when nobody really cares.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I also think that the Cadets talking about Breast Cancer is also inappropriate.

In addition to not liking the talking, I think Breast Cancer shouldn't be a part of the show unless the corps is doing a whole show dedicated to it with music only of course.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 - 1983

How about dissonant chords. Shouldn't we abolish everything, but major chords from drum corps.


(Let's pretend breast cancer doesn't exist, Jimmy.)

Ah .. the new age of drum corps ... social and political commentary!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I, too, was at the Rose Bowl last August, for all 3 days. I was not booing, so you are preaching to the choir. I still say that no kid got booed; rather, it was the idea of all that talking, while the kids were playing their music, that got booed. The kids on the field know that. The kids got plenty of applause, and they deserved it.

As for writing to DCI, you have to be kidding. You are aren't you? Tell me yes, so that I know that you are in touch with reality. Have you ever written to DCI? Have you?! I have. I am still waiting for a reply to each of my various missives to them. Good thing I'm not holding my breast all this time, over two years with some! Gimme a break. DCI! Hah!

I have written to Madison and Phantom in the last two years and I got prompt replies from their directors. In fact, the Scouts and I wrote back and forth a number of times, about a certain matter. I'll write to a corps, yes.

Holding your BREAST, Bill? THERE'S a Freudian slip if I've ever heard one...

Haven't seen Cadets show, so I can't really comment. I don't think the subject would bother me as much as the fact that their show consists of mostly talking with some musical accompaniment (or so I've heard).

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bob, I think Bill needs some keyboard training!

BUT, since we are talking ab out the Cadets program, maybe it would be helpful if the alums who have actually seen their show would describe it to us.

That is, what are they talking about? What is this
".. and the pursuit of happiness" theme? I have heard that the show is based on a book, written by some woman who went through tough times (breast cancer?)

Narration seems to be a major distraction (again).

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I used the word "breast" intentionally; it was no slip of any sort. Why would you assume otherwise? Again, it was no slip.

As for The Cadets, they are brisk, sharp, and musically gifted. I really enjoy watching them enter and depart the field, because as they march they just look so cool! I think that the stripe that runs down each pant leg has a certain visual effect that is striking.

I tried to not pay attention to the talking that goes on, between a young man and a young woman, who are on a circular stage in the middle of the field. It seems to be a living room setting, and the two of them just converse, talking about being happy, I think. Breast cancer is mentioned once, I think. I don't think that there is as much talking as in the 3 previous years, during their show. I need to see their show again, in order to say more. I can say that, musically, I was not as impressed as much as I have been in the 3 previous years. I have listened to them online a few times, too (audio only). For me, something's missing this year and I can't quite put my finger on it.

I'll put money on it (a nickel, perhaps) that they will finish 3rd at finals, at best. In fact, I'd bet that they'll finish 4th. Maybe I'll get surprised; we'll see.

Bill, thanks for the post about the Cadets. That helps us understand the issue.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

But they march out-of-step!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

They do? I've not noticed, but I have an amateur's eye. I even watched for that and they looked perfect to me.

Jim Snyder:

With all due respect, I go to Drum Corps shows once every couple of years now.

We lost my Mother-In-Law a year and a half ago. She was diagnosed with cancer and died in 5 weeks. I come to shows to be entertained not to be reminded of cancer. Thank God my wife wasn't at this show. She has been fragile ever since her mother died and has been slowly becoming herself.

As I said. If they corps is going to be dressed in Pink and promote Breast Cancer cures as a benefit that is one thing. But I come to shows to be entertained and hear and see great music and execution. I don't need to hear narration about breast cancer. It is just not the place or forum.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980 - 1983

I go to lots of corps shows. I couldn't agree with you more!

Upon further review......
I just listened, again, to the download of The Cadets. Their show is a (make-believe) National Public Radio broadcast, in which a young male interviewer questions a young woman about her own personal pursuit of happiness, the theme of that day's radio program. Music is interwoven, in-between segments of the interview, in what looks much like a living room setting, I think.

The woman, Sarah Jones, opens with how she wishes she could just snap her fingers and be happy... there is a distinct sound of her snapping her fingers at the opening of the interview. She talks of how she has survived breast cancer and about her surgery for it, in 2006. She calls herself "a survivor." My wife did not survive (brain) cancer and I just did not like this talk at a drum corps show. Yes, it disturbed me. I came to escape the harsh realities of life, not to be reminded of them. I still say, as many others do, "Just shut up and play!"

Well (whether we like it or not), Sarah goes on to talk about her joy of feeling so independent during her college days. Then music is played. Then she talks about finding a man and then her marriage. All along the interviewer asks leading questions of her. More music is played.

She talks about her job on Madison Avenue and how she loves it, with all its stresses and excitement, and of how she makes time to get to her daughters' recitals. More music. She talks of her divorce, briefly. Music.

The show finishes with her saying that we don't have to pursue happiness, it is there for the taking, just like this... and she snaps her fingers. That sound ends the show. The audience just sits there... then it dawns on everyone that that's it. Finis. Then a ripple of applause begins, as some realize that's it! Then the crowd joins in, clapping.

The ending is very, very blah. I'm guessing that they will add to their program and come up with a new ending, tho the show is now just under 12 minutes in length. I think that the talking is, after all, as much as in the last few years. This year, there is no singing, tho... yet. Is there a breast cancer song? We might be hearing it in their show, yet. I know the two all male corps are thinking of doing testicular cancer shows next summer, complete with the testicular cancer song being sung by the entire corps. We'll see... and hear. We need more singing, and more talking about causes. Cool!

You could play 30 recordings of different corps this year and not tell me who is performing. If you removed the talking from The Cadets show, I could tell it is them. Their sound, year in and year out, is their sound. No other corps sounds like The Cadets; their horns sound is unique. I like it.

I still say that the music is quite blah this year, tho, of course, well played, indeed. The program, itself... my review of it... dumb and stupid.

I hope this review, complete with personal editorial comments, helps you to get a better idea of what their '08 show is like (Dave, etc.). Glad to be of service. Keep on listenin', folks.

Bill,

They aren't out of step with each other - but they march on the wrong foot as a group (they have since 85 or so). While everyone else does and always has started with the LEFT foot on beat one, they start on the right - just another way for George Hopkins to **** everybody off. I think he sits up at night thinking of these things for that reason.

As for the talking - give me a break! Shut up and play!

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Bill, thanks for the review of the Cadets show. Maybe you should tell THEM of your feelings and reactions!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

Thinking about the "cancer" thing. Seems strange that the Cadets would do that. One of their own alums is dealing with cancer now. 'Course, HE is still alive and fighting. Maybe that makes it different.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

I always thought the Cavaliers or Madison would do a show based "La Cage aux Folles" or "the Village People." Those would be a different kind of show one might consider inappropriate content. The Cadets "White Rabbit" show had another type of inappropriate content.

Guess if the violence trend catches on we'll see shows based on the movies "Kill Bill," "Pulp Fiction," "Night of the Living Dead," and "Texas Chainsaw Massacre." Can't wait to see the Cadets or Cavaliers color guard carrying chainsaws. Might have to wait until gas prices come down though.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Sorry Jimmy, I haven't seen the Cadets yet. I probably shouldn't comment on their show's content till I see it. I figured it was a breast cancer awareness thing going on which I think is important. I guess it was something done in bad taste instead. I'll reserve any more comments till I see their show first.

Bob, does the fact that the Cadets march on their right foot really aggravate you? Or is it just your dislike for George Hopkins? It's actually probably due to George Zengali that they do that. It's really not that distracting at all.

John, they can get electric chain saws and just plug them in with the pit amplification. If we're lucky, it will cause enough interference to drown out the narration! When the add the sax's they could probably launch mortars from their "mouth".

What did you do in the Corps? drum

What years were you a Corps member? 61-69

My point in all of this is it's much ado about nothing. For years corps have had "theme" shows. Madison did something relative to PEACE in the early 70s and the Cavaliers did a circus show. Argonne did "Jesus Christ Superstar" and Madison and Santa Clara had a number of Broadway shows (City of Angels and Phantom of the Opera were entertaining). But all these shows nowadays seem to be the brainchild of some performance art type. Except for the Blue Devils focus on jazz scores (within a theme of some type) I find the rest of the corps boring amd a waste of time. I guess I'm stuck in the "park and blow" era with the 1980 Spirit of Atlanta, Madison and Blue Devils.

It does sound like the simulated violence is a bit much. Will have to catch download one of DCI's shows at some point in time.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Jim,

It actually has nothing to do with Hopkins - I have enough besides that to dislike him for. It just aggravates me to no end that they lead with the right foot! The first time I noticed it was a July 4 parade in Atlanta in the 80s, and I actually followed them for several blocks to make sure I was seeing it right (no pun intended)! Just the old fart in me, again...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

Crotchety ole coot, aren'tcha, Bob!

Here's an idea for appropriate content: How about a themed show based on the history of Drum Corps?

The only Drum Corps show I'll ever be interested to see again is when somebody goes retro.

This isn't that far-fetched. Imagine a corps reviving all of the great old corps' best shows. Imagine a real flag presentation, a real company front.

Yeah, some of the alumni corps have already done it, and they were a treat to watch. But I'd like to see it done in regular DCI competition.

I believe nobody's got the stones to make it happen.

Larry

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Larry, I once wrote to Jeff Fiedler, then of the Cavaliers, about this. He pretty much said... nice idea; we'll see. I agree with you; it's a great idea! No stones is right!

Bill,

I'm not that old...

What did you do in the Corps? Snare, Drum Major, Drum Instructor/Arranger

What years were you a Corps member? 1970-73; 78-79

It must be really hard to learn to lead with the RIGHT foot in a corps, after having spent so many years doing the more military syle.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958-63

More on throat slitting, from Bill Schaefer at Bloomington:

"Lastly, went for a beer and wings last night. I started talking with a guy at the next table. It ends up that he is the man (goes by D.R. or some two letters like that) who wrote all of Phantom's music for this year's show. I told him that I had written to Regiment about the throat slashing scene that my young grandkids had seen with me (still part of their show), and that the director had written back to me. He said that the man having a good time about 20 feet away is the director and that their staff were the rest of the people there, in the room, partying with others. Small world. He said that the kids see worse on t.v. and that it is part of their story-telling and important to the show's impact.":
-------------------------------------------------

My reactions:

1. So, kids see worse on TV. Why does that justify
their action? Are TV standards the rule of our
land?
2. Important to their shows impact? HUH!?
The impact would be significantly less without
that murder? Give me a break!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

...and the corps and staff were rewarded -- by being given the Walt Disney Creativity Award, for good, clean "family entertainment" (the announcer's actual words on the P.A. last nite).

What... do I take on Disney now?!

You know... we can monitor what the kids watch on tv, and my grandkids' parents do, too. However, when I take them to a drum corps show, the last thing on my mind is monitoring what they may and may not watch. I always felt that nothing could be more wholesome than a drum corps show, for the kids to see. Now, I don't like them seeing a show until I have first seen it, which did not happen with Phantom this year... it was my first time seeing them, too. Boo... hiss!

Such a show should be labeled as containing violence, somehow, before such a corps takes the field.
God knows... DCI makes plenty of other announcements between corps' performances (repeatedly, too). I was surprised at how many little kids were at finals the last three days, too.

So now, given the extremely slight margin of victory - merely one quarter of a tenth of a point - the question must now be: Did the throat scene contribute to that victory, or would they have had a higher margin without it?

If you believe that it contributed, then there cannot be any doubt that it won the show for them. The effect of that scene had to contribute to the score, pushing it over the top.

If you believe it did not contribute, then it's lucky for them that they outperformed themselves compared to the rest of the year.

Interesting, isn't it?

Regardless, since they are the Champions, I'd guess the use of that scene will be considered validated.

Regardless of what's on TV.

What did you do in the Corps? Drumline

What years were you a Corps member? 1960-1965

Well, it appears that Larry is correct. Graphic violence has been validated by DCI for use in corps programs! Now that Phantom win with it .. MORE will be used by others.

And DCI doesn't care.

And, many parent don't care either. They don't monitor what their kids see .. anywhere.

Too bad. IMHO

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

Disney approves too.

Yes, and Disney has "GAY DAYS" at their parks too!

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

I guess you can blame the media and the segment of of our society that is ultra-liberal. Is almost like, anything goes as long as you leave me alone. The mainstream press and all of the tabloid press are now, in the name of being politically correct and "fair", condone things that our parents and grand parents would have fought to protect our society against. They are basically trying to make graphic violence and deviant behavior acceptable or "normal" in their utopian view of the how they feel the world should be.

Basically, we are the modern Romans. Take a quick look at our society and compare it with Rome in the days before their empire fell. There are unfortunately too many parallels to ignore. However, it is politically incorrect to speak out against this kind of stuff. I wonder if the Disney company really realizes or cares what kind of damage that their reputation incurs by giving a free hand for their news agencies (ABC NEWS) and ESPN, etc. or agencies who unwittingly help in the popularization of, or sponsor such deviant behavior. The simulated throat slitting is just a minor infraction of Walt's original code of behavior, and our society's desensitivity to these kinds of acts is merely the tip of the iceberg for a society that is morally and spiritually going down the tubes.

Walt Disney would be spinning around in his grave if he knew what was going on in his name.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

Please excuse the typos in my last post.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I can see Hopkins taking up the lead and developing a show after the HBO series "Rome" or something based on "Caligula." Heads rolling and all kinds of gore. Maybe that's why they modified the DCI rules last year to have fluids used in the show.

Don't know what's worse. The Cadets talking or the Phantom Regiment's violence.

I haven't had time to go out on DCI's site to download Phantom's performance, I guess I'll have to check it out.

What did you do in the Corps? Baritone

What years were you a Corps member? Cadets 1959 to 1961 Imperials 1962 to 1966

Fluids?

I can just see someone getting electrocuted on the field when a corps using "Fluids" gets it on the amplification equipment.

I hope that never happens.

What did you do in the Corps? Cymbals, Bass Drum, Tenor

What years were you a Corps member? 1980-1983

What is really becoming inappropriate is DCI itself,
as an orgainization or I should say a corporation.
That's what it has become.No limits,or no holds
barred.We have to much violence around us already,
that's all you hear about,on the TV news report's
in the newspapers,radio,the news station thrieve on
this.

Is this what Drum Corps is turning into or is it
just going thru a phase,"hopefully it is".

Every now and than I think what would've happened
and how Drum Corp would be today if Don Warren
for some resaon didn't get his way and failed in his
quest to start DCI.

What did you do in the Corps? French Horn

What years were you a Corps member? 1957 thru 1963

I don't think even Don Warren likes what DCI has become. Jim Jones of Troopers, who was also a founder, would be spinning in his grave. It is undoubtedly NOT what the founders intended it to be.

What did you do in the Corps? Brass Instructor, Corps Manager

I'm pretty sure that after all of these years in drum corps, Don Warren understands that you cannot predict the future of this activity. I'm sure he knew that DCI was never going to be an intent, but rather a means for organizing. The product was never predictable.

Ha! Both Jerry and Jim are right! Of course the founders had their ideas .. and 30 years later "times have changed".

All I know is that DCI has (apparently) been a major (but NOT sole) factor in killing off local, community corps.

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

50% of each corps has to live within a 20 mile radius of the corps home location.

Bill,. where did you hear that?

What did you do in the Corps? drummer

What years were you a Corps member? 1958- 63

It's a new DCI rule.